Should there be more finals matches

Should finals be more than just a best of 3? Should it be a best of 5 like the one-off Festival of Champions, or even more? If so should it just be at Einstein finals, Einstein and divisions finals, or all events?
The main downside I see is just time. What are some others?
I didn’t want to spam the poll with options but what do you think about more matches in all playoff rounds? Is best of 5 enough or should we go even more, and where?

  • More than best of 3 at Einsteins
  • More than best of 3 at Einsteins and Division finals
  • More than best of 3 at all events
  • No, best of 3 is enough
  • Other

0 voters

1 Like

I think that with the way that Einstein is set up now (Round Robin into Einstein Finals) it’d make a lot of sense to turn the finals into a 3-of-5 instead of a 2-of-3. I would have loved to see more of yesterdays matches play out.

Although time could be an issue, they filled the time between the first and second match with a bunch of awards, speeches, etc… but the time between the 2nd match and the 3rd was actually really short (since they can’t plan anything in-between in case there isn’t the swing match). Perhaps if they can depend on at least 3 matches we’ll A) get to see more FRC and B) they can split up their speeches with more actual robotics which will help keep the crowd more engaged and give alliances extra time to do strategy and prep.

25 Likes

IMO the biggest flaw with Einstein is not the BO3 finals. It’s the 6->2 round robin. It results in matches being played that have no bearing on the final outcome. I think the entire last round of matches was meaningless.

Match 13 – Carver mathematically eliminated after losing 3 matches. Galileo probably too far behind in cargo to catch Newton for a finals slot.
Match 14 – Hopper mathematically eliminated after losing 3 matches. Turing mathematically locked into finals with 4 wins.
Match 15 – Newton locked into finals with 3 wins while Galileo/Carver had 2. Roebling mathematically eliminated with 3 losses.

I don’t think any of these matches had any bearing on the final result.

My proposal (though it would add more time) would be a round robin to seed alliances. Then do an NFL-style 6 team bracket.

QF1 — 3 v 6
QF2 — 4 v 5
SF1 — 1 v lowest remaining seed
SF1 — 2 v highest remaining seed
Finals — winner of SF1 vs winner of SF2

All BO3. You could also do it without reseeding (aka SF1 is 1 v QF1 winner, SF2 is 2 v QF2 winner).

11 Likes

I like the idea of bringing back the eliminations style, I’m just not sure how the ranking for seeding on Einstein is determined?

Fwiw I don’t think it should carry on from divisions - if youre the seventh seed, you’ve done your time being the underdog and should be seen as an equal alongside the other division winners.

16 Likes

As I mentioned, I would keep the round robin and use that for seeding. Then go into the 6-team elims bracket. I do concede that Einstein would take forever though.

6 Likes

I’d support BO5 if they actually made finals watchable. I love FIRST, but if they want to actually look like the “varsity sport for the mind” that they claim to be, they need to decrease time between finals matches - there was way too much time between Finals 1 and Finals 2 at Houston. Perhaps play a highlight reel of previous matches while teams are working in the pits? Just a thought.

15 Likes

My insane idea for Einstein is that the field essentially becomes a district championship by taking the top 60 best teams (ranked using district points) from the championship and a new round of qualification and playoff matches is run. That would take a whole extra day though, and it would be one that most teams wouldn’t even know if they’d need going into the event.

Realistically, BO5 or BO7 would be fine.

9 Likes

I like this idea. It would mean the actual best teams would get to compete on Einstein and ranking in a specific division would be a little less important. Super stacked divisions like Curie this year would contribute more teams than weaker divisions. This seems a lot more fair to me and kinda fixes the issue of stacked divisions knocking out really good teams preemptively.

2 Likes

Finally

1 Like

The 6->2 round robin gives fun to watch because each division champions got to play with one another. Though I agree with that a lot of last round matches are meaningless.
I agree with a post in a similar thread before, instead of doing a 6->2, why not 6->4 and back to the regular elimination style. It doesn’t cost much time to just add a round of semifinals either.

6 Likes

My primary concern with this is time. Let’s be honest, I don’t think FIRST has been “on-time” since the start of 2Champs (and maybe earlier, but I wasn’t tracking it). Yes, one could reduce the amount of filler (t-shirt cannons?) and get more matches in, but alas, mother nature precluded that at MMP (sun angle). So maybe we can find the time, but not at MMP (for Houston), so more matches, later ending, and travel implications for teams not staying over until Sunday.

I’m speaking more from a Detroit perspective, but I think it would have been cool to have all of Einstein play out at Ford Field, not just the finals. After all the time it takes to move tens of thousands of people from Cobo to Ford, and get resettled into new seats, we watch 2 FRC matches and some speeches and it is basically over? Seems a little anticlimactic. Ford Field feels more like what the entire St. Louis experience was like. I’d be ok to spend more time there.

4 Likes

If the Einstein finals were changed to be a best-of-5 in addition to the round robin, it would probably be a good idea to count the finalist alliances’ match from the round robin as one of those 5. It saves a match and gives more value to winning the match during the round robin, as the winner only has to win 2/4 while the other alliance would have to win 3/4

5 Likes

My issue with the round robin is that teams advance or get eliminated “off-camera”. It completely kills the drama of winning or losing matches in a bracket. I know that I wasn’t keeping good track of what the implications of each match were. If Carver beats Galileo with more than X cargo, what does that do to Newton’s standing? Why do I care who wins in Hopper V Roebling? It turns a clean system into a half-pointless mishmash.

4 Likes

Why not go back to 4 divisions of 100? Just have a normal bracket for Einstein. Or move to 8 divisions of 50, but then you have to find space for the 2 extra divisions and the fields will be pretty shallow.

3 Likes

I completely agree. The main reason I’ve heard MMP was bad for round robin was they had to wait for the sun to go down. At Ford field that’s not an issue so we won’t be wasting time. Ford field was really fun and the best part of Detroit in my mind. I would have loved to have the whole round robin there.

Also back to the main point of the thread. I feel we need for finals matches because bo3 just isn’t enough to decide a winner. This year is a really good example. The matches really could have gone either way and little things, like poofs hatch getting stuck or not climbing, decided all of world’s. If we had more matches we’d really see which alliance is better, not which happened to make one or two mistakes.
I think they could definitely cut down on filler and for more matches in.

1 Like

“FIRST” and “on time” and “Champs” do NOT go together in the same sentence, unless the word “not” or “never” is used.

I have yet to see a CMP that ended even close to on time, going back to when I was a student. The question isn’t “will it run late?” but “how late will it run THIS year?”.

7 Likes

So closing ceremonies seemed to start more or less on schedule at 6:30 and the last match ended roughly at 8:30, meaning 2 hours to play 5 matches. My idea is to have the FLL champion play 2 exhibition matches, meaning 6-7 matches over 2 hours, and showcases another level of the program at the highest level. That’s one good way of getting more robots in.

1 Like

Honestly, we only need BO1s. VEX proved that BO1s caused no issues and the community is absolutely in love with it.

/sigh So as a VEX event partner, people forget that B01 also includes the “two robot alliances”. So not apples to oranges.

I love the round robin to get to the big dance, and I like that Einstein does B03 at that level. Love the teams that won the first match, but have to say the teams that gathered up and won the next two are Champions. That was some pretty amazing robot action.

1 Like