Has anyone ever failed inspection for “wrong shade of blue or red”?
Given that the only rule is “red” or “blue”:
When I’m inspecting, I’m going to pass any shade of blue/red.
2 Likes
Some shades of navy blue or particularly dark reds have caused issues in the past.
Something about “almost black”.
1 Like
If you can’t tell if it is dark red or dark blue, then I would say that’s not either.
2 Likes
Maybe the photo isn’t doing the color justice, but I see no blue in that. Curious what Chuck or Al think, but if the photo is accurate, I don’t think I’d pass that.
5 Likes
Attempting to steer the conversation back to the future of bumpers here…
So the bumper color issue is an interesting question. In the early days of bumpers there was a requirement for the red and blue to be “similar to” the red and blue in the FIRST Logo. From 2011 Logomotion R07-H: “The fabric covering the BUMPERS must be a solid red or blue in color. Visually, the red or blue must be as close to the corresponding color in the FIRST logo as reasonable (i.e. to a reasonably astute observer, they appear similar).” I believe the original intent was so that all the robots on an alliance looked “uniform” so that anyone watching from the stands or on a broadcast were clear it was red vs blue and who was who. Over time, teams desired some flexibility and room for creativity and thus the wording of the bumper rules has since evolved.
So here we are today where we have a wide opinion of what is red and blue. What really is red and blue? It is hard to put a qualifier on. If it isn’t red is it blue? If it isn’t blue it must be red? Is super dark navy blue that is almost black ok? Is maroon red? What about teal?
Do we want to put a hard definition on what’s red and blue? Do we specify Pantone colors or require specific fabrics of specific colors? Does FIRST simply give every team specified bumper fabric and maybe even the specified font numbers in the KoP and we are all required to use the same? Do we want team individuality and creativity to be allowed here or do we want a more uniform presentation? Are the 3 robots on each alliance really competing as a cohesive unit and thus maybe should “look the same” (alliance color and number size/font, etc.) such that a spectator sees uniformity between the red robots and the blue robots and easily understands who is playing against who much like the consistent jerseys/uniforms of a sports team?
Or do we want to continue to value the individual creativity of the individual teams and their robots on the field and continue to allow a wide variation of bumper colors and number fonts such that we appear as 6 individual robots all “doing something” on the field? Teams spent year building their brand. Much of that is conveyed through their unique bumpers. They have built their identity around their colors and their unique and recognizable fonts for their numbers.
Is uniformity for the sake of presentation to the casual observer important or do we value individuality?
8 Likes
I definitely see your point comparing bumpers/numbers to sports teams’ jerseys.
Personally I’m fine with variation in font and color (as long as you can tell it is blue or red!) and fabric choice, etc, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep over supplied fabric & numbers either (other than the multi-year supply of fabric we just bought, I guess 
)
Well, recently teams had to change their long standing branded bumper font, so the precedent has been set. Personally, I don’t think it’s good that people ask “Why can XYZ have black bumpers?”.
And, I get having some leniency as it could be tough to find an exact or close to exact color blue font. But many of the teams using very dark blue bumpers aren’t low resource teams using whatever they can find.
3 Likes
I’m pretty serious that if 1323 can compete with it, I will pass it, if I’m inspecting a robot with shades of color several degrees off from the red and blue in the FIRST logo. For my own team I might bring it back a notch, as it’s easier for me to (happily) pass a team I am inspecting than for me to insert my views when someone else inspects my team.
10 Likes
I can actually see the blue in your bottom photo (hence my previous hesitation about making judgement from a photo).
7 Likes
No need to call out any particular team but for the record, I would pass the dark navy bumper color as shown in those photos as well given the current wording of the rules.
My questions still stand. Are dark navy bumpers as in this example something the general community feels is a good thing in support of individual team creativity, flexibility, branding, etc. or would the general feeling be we should “standardize” somehow what is red and what is blue?
Here’s an example… when someone asks me why there are 3 alliances on the field, and what’s the black bumpered robot doing… I think we’ve gone too far. While we shouldn’t prescribe pantone or RGB (± a tolerance) teams pushing “dark blue” to that level have to know they’re risking problems.
If we want to let them show some style or creativity - give them a 5"? wide area, per side, at least… 5"? away from any other elements they can put a logo. IF they can put logos/images anywhere else on the bot, why not on the bumpers (away from numbers to maintain readability)?
Also, the RI discussion is a good one, perhaps a mod can split it off to another thread.
3 Likes
I appreciate this introspective question Chuck. My perspective is that there is a long term appreciation of the individuality of teams in FRC. The push to be more like a “sport” (and the uniformity that goes with sports teams) was really only pushed between about 2009-2013; since then there’s been a lot of celebration of uniqueness. I’m not wanting to call out 1323 as a negative example, but as a RI I’m going to err toward leniency in coloration unless and until HQ clearly indicates a real change in direction on this subject.
3 Likes
My general feeling is that the sole purpose of bumper color is to distinguish one alliance from another quickly. If you can look at Navy Blue bumpers and say “yup, not red” just as fast as you can look at a more Royal bumper and say “yup, not red”, it should generally be accepted as a blue bumper and we can all move on with our lives.
Oh, and Navy Blue bumpers look better on all-black robots than royal bumpers do 
Yup! Not Red!
What kind of problems?
8 Likes
253 last year got grief at both events for the color of these bumpers:
I’m talking “not sure we were going to pass inspection” level of grief and RIs at our second event ready to tell us off. The situation (at my urging) got pushed up the ladder to HQ who eventually OK’d it. The team is not using the fabric this year because it was such a stressor last year.
I figured so-dark-blue-it’s-almost-black passed and so my quirky teal-ish color was completely fine. I bought the fabric and take full responsibility.
The amount of pushback we got was incredible - I wasn’t trying to get a competitive advantage or pull a fast one. Our usual supplier for fabric was out of stock and the rules around fabric were getting weird. I decided to go with a FIRST recommended fabric in the shade closest to Boba Bots Blue. 253 has a strong brand and I wanted to extend it to every reasonable element of the robot.
I’m not trying to ruin anybody’s day and stop them from having the shade of blue (or red) that they want - but also I want some consistency. I think a range of shades of acceptable blue (and red) could alleviate this issue.
48 Likes
What you all went through last season is ridiculous. Those bumpers are so clearly blue (and not red) that it’s insane to me that any RI would put more than a half second of thought into passing them.
Edit: Also I still vote for Rocket League rules.
These are blue:
These are red:
Go wild, teams. Express yourself.
72 Likes
Would it be legal for a certain pink team to have a very light shade of red that some might call pink?
From this discussion seems legal.
I like the idea of individuality in bumpers if we could identify alliances with a status light or something else.
I am firmly of the opinion that teams should have considerable flexibility in the tint or shade of red/blue on their bumpers. This is both for practical (sourcing fabric) and creative reasons.
I might stop short of totally blowing the doors wide open though with “rocket league rules”— the goal is that the alliances can be distinguished by referees and spectators, which means that color blindness should be considered and limiting the available colors to red-adjacent and blue-adjacent feels very sensible. I do think the question of what is “close enough” to red/blue is one that can be reasonably discussed as far as mixing colors. The bumpers Katie posted seem firmly “blue” to me but I’m not confident that as it gets greener that is sufficiently distinguishable to someone with red/green color blindness.
Likewise there is probably a brightness floor/ceiling— white and black probably aren’t acceptable, but navy and pink probably should be.
I say this all from the perspective of a team that doesn’t really have any reason to stray from pure red/blue bumpers.
8 Likes
As someone who would love to run Grapefruit and Lime bumpers, I agree (but obviously I’d enjoy seeing the color options open up more significantly than you’re proposing).
Edit: I should note that this suggestion is 40% sarcasm.
This thread was split from Are we doing bumpers right?
6 Likes