We had that problem out of state. We didn’t ever have a problem with it at peachtree but have had it occasionally at vcu and once at boilermaker in 05. Infact during peachtree, we stood throughout the entire playoffs. Since then, we have compromised and moved towards the back of the stands so we didn’t annoy people that had problems with it at other regionals/champs.
I think that you should have the right to support your team during their matches. If the people want to scout that bad, they should either stand up or find another place for a short 2:15. There are only like 7 opportunities for the rest of the team to show their support for the robot, and most everyone wants to take advantage of it by standing up and going crazy for the bot.
Generally, when a team stands up in front of us, we stand up right behind them to see the match and cheer them on.
I would rather be up closer but since it doesn’t sit well with some, we don’t…
Our team always stands when we are haveing a match. usually this is no problem. we often tell the teams behind us that we will stand durring our match, and when it is over we will sit again. This usually calms some nerves. If we end up standing in front of scouters, and they point this out to us (usually by frenzied yelling of “gah, can you sit? i gotta scout this!”), we move close togeather to give the scouters a line of vision.
We have been on the reciveing end also, were the team in front of us stands and blocks our veiw (and most importantly the veiw of our scouters). But is this a fiasco? no. the scouters sit at the end of a row so that they have more room to move thier heads around to get the best veiw of the feild. If the team in front of us seems to be taking up way more space than they need to, or if somones mascot is in our way (happened at nationals) we have one person politely ask them if they could move slightly so that we can scout. Never once has anyone said no to me when i have asked them to make a small accomedation.
It seems to me that the only time it becomes a big deal is if someone makes it one. we ran into this at nationals when someone came up to one of our mentors and asked her if she was familiar with the “no standing rule” at all events. she politly responded that she was unfamiliar with this rule and that if it was pointed out to her in offical documentation she would happily comply. we did not ever get a chance to see that rule pointed out to us…
It seems to me that the bigger a deal people make out of the standing (as in the bigger the fit they have) the less likely it is for teams to want to be compliant. And throwing a fit doesnt seem very FIRSTy to me. What i have found is that if the two parties (the standers and the sitters behind them) have a polite exchange, there is rarely a time where a solution cannot be worked out.
In my opinion, I don’t think it’s very polite to stand during a match. It makes it difficult for scouts to see the field and see how good some robots are. Standing can sometimes rob the other robots on the field the chance to be noticed and be picked during alliance selections. Think of it this way: Team A goes into a match. Their robot is working very well, but has not yet had a chance to show its scoring ability. Team B goes into the same match along with Team A. Team B’s member’s stand up during the match to cheer and show spirit. Team C, which is in the stands scouting behind Team B, is seeded very high and will probably be selecting an alliance for the elimination matches. Team A compliments Team C very well, but Team C is not able to see how good they really are because their view is obstructed by Team B’s members standing up.
Although it might not affect your team very much if you stand, you might very well affect 5 other teams in the process. There are plenty of ways to show team spirit without standing up in front of other teams. Remember, during a football game, people don’t have to look down as far to see the action. During FRC, the fields are much closer to the base of the stands, making it very problematic if even a small obstacle is in front of you.
As a FIRST participant for four years, It is difficult for me to believe that an individual (unless a scout) watches every match. As previously mentioned - the competition is a sporting event…and as in any sports related activity, fans stand to support their team – especially when something exciting happens. If you parallel this to a robotics competition, teams stand when excited. For some teams this may only be for a few seconds - however, for most it may be the entire match. At the Championship event, there are countless areas where scouts could relocate for better visibility.
Standing in moments of excitement is limitless in the real world. For example, in Congress when a speaker makes a moving speech, members stand. When the President makes a favorable point, individuals stand. At a football game, after a player makes a touchdown, fans stand (sometimes for minutes). Do you think that an individual sitting behind someone who is standing requests that the individual sit down?..No.
Please provide examples. The only thing that I can think of is cheering…waving flags or other items would probably be labeled as "ungracious” as well.
At the Championship event, there are countless areas where scouts could relocate for better visibility.
This is very untrue. This year we tried to be very dedicated to scouting and changed our location every day in search of a better view. The first day we had prime seats, almost bottom and center, but unfortunately we couldn’t get those seats any other day. Otherwise, we were at the top, with the hopes of being able to see over everyone else (again, doesn’t quite work at the Championship), and on Saturday, we were almost off of the field and at the top, running into the same situation. Some may not realize that if you are scouting with a laptop, you cannot stand up to look over those standing in front of you, when it is difficult to see even when they are sitting.
In the end, a team shouldn’t have to go through extremes to try to see a match. Other teams should be courteous enough to realize that there are people behind them, and with only 6 or 7 matches, EVERY single match is vital to collect worthy scouting data.
Apparently, most have taken sides on this issue and a few have become offended by pleas to remain seated during the match. Again, I look at it like this, what difference does it make if you are standing and cheering during the whole match? Have you ever tried sitting and cheering during the match? Do you feel as if you are less spirited, or as if there is a loss of enthusiasm? If you didn’t get a chance to stand, would you have gone “Oh man, if I was standing I would have been so much more spirited to my team and I guess I am going to have to sit and mope now!” I doubt it. A new twist to FIRST: a lesson in self-control to deal with. Try sitting and cheering for a few matches, just for the sake of everyone behind you.
How about this, if there was an actual rule about it, would you still stand and cheer? Probably not. You would think of better ways to show spirit according to the new ruling. Just because someone doesn’t tell you to play in traffic doesn’t mean that you should.
Hopefully FIRST will officially address this by next year with a fair solution. I’m sure we have better things to discuss than common courtesy.
-No L
I see that you are extremely passionate about this topic, and I am not going to argue with the points that you have made. Although, I disagree with your comments, responding to each of them would be repetitive. With this being said, I am sorry that your team was unable to obtain optimal seating and as a result, were unable to collect the scouting information that you desired.
As far as a ruling - I feel that standing should be allowed because it contributes to the energy of the competition. Spirit (as it pertains to standing) has been an integral part of FIRST, as it visually depicts student and mentor enthusiasm. Although, cheering while sitting contributes to the audio…it lacks any evidence of visual excitement.
What a great idea!
I will have to bring a bag of projectiles to Atlanta next year. :mad:
Eugene
Just as a personal peeve of mine, there’s little to no reason to hide behind the “spirit of what people define as gracious professionalism” as a catch-all for any actions that people view contribute to the competition but that others may have disagreements with. Just as you have pointed out that it could be construed as not being “GP” to politely ask a team to sit down, I could construe it as not being “GP” when I am asked by the same team to not sit in their section of seats that they have attempted to save. (Although that is an actual rule). I certainly would not take offense or question a team’s “GP” if they were saving one or two seats just as a team shouldn’t when they are asked to sit down by another team behind them. As sound and integral the concept of GP may be to FIRST, one runs into the danger of diluting what the message is supposed to be (not that I claim to be an expert on it, but I have a fairly good idea in mind that it wasn’t designed to be applied to the practice of requesting other teams to sit down) when one uses it to hide behind issues that really are more banal than they appear to be.
On the actual topic of the thread, every regional that I have been a part of always has a section marked off in the very front so that teams may kneel and cheer or sometimes stand in close promixity at field level. This stops the issue of cheering and standing up entirely.
I’ll come down on the side of the old fogeys as well, despite my age. Standing in front of other people and blocking their view isn’t nice. I’m certain none of these teams supporting standing would even think about waving a 10’ flag in the stands during their matches and blocking views that way, but they have little problem with blocking views by standing. The only difference is in the magnitude.
As others have said, there are many other people at these competitions, and it’s very cavalier to simply assume they’re all capable of standing or moving about to suit your whims. The disabled, elderly, physically infirm, and pregnant are all unlikely to be able to stand repeatedly or for long periods. Nor are they likely to move about every time a standing team sits in front of them. Ask yourself this:
Would you hesitate to hold a door for one of these people? Help them pick up something they dropped? Assist them up stairs if they asked?
Now, would you change your answer if you were headed to watch a match? More importantly, would you actively cut someone off at a door if you were headed to a match? Would you bump them in haste and cause them to drop things, then run off to see your team?
How about an easy one… Would you seat a team member’s grandmother in a back row, and then have the entire team stand up in front of her? Or pick a seat in front of her and then stand up? Is there any good reason to treat someone else’s grandmother differently?
I know they’re all terribly unfair questions. I suppose it’s unfortunate that it’s a terribly unfair situation to begin with, but you might want to stop and consider just who it’s unfair to.
For anyone who listened to openning ceremonies at Nationals this year, it was once again highlighted that the “G” in “GP” is all about not following the ugly “win at all costs” mentality of some sporting events. Yes we want to win, and support our teams, but NOT “at any cost”.
Standing en-mass throughout an entire match, with COMPLETE disregard to anyone behind you, is simply put, un-gracious. I don’t care how you want to justify it… “we’ve always done it… they do it at football matches… the people behind can stand up too… we’re just showing team spirit”. It’s just egotistical.
You’re basically saying… “for the next 2 1/2 minutes, our participation is more important than yours”. It’s starting to sound like the “I’m drunk and can be as obnoxious as I like” aspect of many sporting events.
It’s also just like the guy who parks his car in the handicapped spot to return his videos. “It’s just for a minute…”
The other problem of maintaining the existing “standing” staus quo is that it starts adversely effecting other FIRST events. For example, at nationals I was trying to watch our Middle School FLL team compete. Anyone who has watched a FLL match knows that it’s hard at the best of times because of the small scale. Even with a big screen you can not get a feel for the play.
When it came time for one of our matches, a group of 20 or so adults stood up about 5 rows in front of us and stayed standing for the entire match. They even held up placards to add another 4 feet to their height. Needless to say, we couldn’t see a thing, even when we also stood up. When a badged FIRST offical (who’s view was obstructed) went down and asked them to sit, they replied “no, our team’s playing”.
OK, let’s look at this for a moment. There were 4 FLL tems playing on the field at that moment, so the parents in question felt that the other 3 sets of supporters didn’t deserve to see their teams play. They also felt that the supporter behind them in the wheelchair also should have been able to stand up to see, and that the FIRST official should just mind her own business.
It’s also interesting that at a coach’s meeting the following day, we were told that the judges were observing all aspects of team dynamics and that poor team (and supporter) behavior on the playing field, in the pits and stands were all factored into awards. Ungracious support behaviour can clearly impact a team’s ability to win an award that depends on GP.
FIRST doesn’t have to make a rule against something for it to be wrong.
It’s already outlawed because it’s UN-GP.
ps:
If you first reaction to my post is “Get over it, we’re going to keep standing up for the full match.”, then you’ve just proved my point.
Phil.
Nearly every person in our team, when in the stands, is scouting a match. Our team is not very large, and it can be difficult for our members to see a match when several people are standing up in front of us. Sure, it is possible to relocate to a better position, but unfortunately, splitting up our team for one match would usually result in our team splitting up for the rest of the day. And odds are, the new spot that we find will be behind another team anyway, thus defeating the purpose of relocation.
Standing in moments of excitement is limitless in the real world. For example, in Congress when a speaker makes a moving speech, members stand. When the President makes a favorable point, individuals stand. At a football game, after a player makes a touchdown, fans stand (sometimes for minutes). Do you think that an individual sitting behind someone who is standing requests that the individual sit down?..No.
Although many consider FRC a sporting event, it does not necessarily hold true to that idea. Sure, FRC is tons of fun and is great to watch, but there is a difference between wanting to watch a match and needing to watch a match. I (and my team as well) never stand during a match, but we do stand up and cheer when our team is announced and after the final score is announced. I can sympathize with the teams behind us that are scouting, so I will not block someone’s view just so I can get a better look at our robot.
Please provide examples. The only thing that I can think of is cheering…waving flags or other items would probably be labeled as "ungracious” as well.
Cheering and chanting during a match is okay. However, you may do whatever you want as long as it is not during the match. I suppose that if winning the team spirit award is that important to a team during the competition, then I am afraid that that team has failed to identify things that are more important than winning an award. To me, it’s more rewarding to know that I made someone else happy or to display GP, rather than winning an award at the expense of others.
This isn’t standing, it is simply sitting.
On Saturday afternoon in Atlanta, there were a couple of times when I was told to move at the top of the stands when I took a seat. I have a young spirit but oldish knees and they wanted to sit a spell. It proved a little harder to do than I had anticipated.
In spite of many years of a rule to the contrary, seat saving is alive and well at FIRST events. Part of the problem is that the rule against seat saving is not well posted at the events, and the majority of the people in the stands have not read, nor do they care that much about, the rule on seat saving. Perhaps signs should be posted at every portal to enter the stands, so people can’t say they have not seen the rule.
I am pretty much in the pits when my team is competing, coming up into the stands to see the team and robot perform for each match that lasts a little more than two minutes, and I get hassled pretty much every time I take a seat for that. Many seats are being saved and I come and go long before any of the missing people fill them.
I try to tell people I will only be there for the match, and will get up if someone comes. Most of the time I get eventual acceptance of my temporary presence, but sometimes not and I have to try for another seat. Getting hassled by people who are saving a row of empty seats is just as unpleasant as having a group stand up in front of you, blocking your view of the match that you have made the long walk up from the pits to see.
I am not one to instigate an international incident over the matter, but it would sure be nice if people in the stands would get the message on the issue and let people sit and watch matches, as FIRST says they are supposed to be able to. It would be nice if people standing, knowing full well that they are blocking the view of many others, showed a little common courtesy as well. I find the notion of someone arguing that they should be allowed to block the view of others, and calling them rude for complaining about it, just a little over the top.
Eugene
I do understand some of your concerns. However, it was never stated that team’s stood for the purpose of winning an award. By mentioning this, you are challenging the overall integrity of teams (when most have been extremely productive in spreading awareness, aiding others – and engaging in other positive efforts).
In no way am I call titling those who are suggesting that teams sit down as “rude.” - Each person is entitled to their opinion. However, as I have previous stated, standing is a visual depiction of excitement (as it pertains to the competition) and support for ones team, its drivers, and FIRST in general. Rudely prompting that a team do sit down - by means of throwing, yelling, using vulgar language, or engaging in inappropriate arguments with mentors and students — all who are extremely excited is not gracious. By doing this - members become upset and frustrated…decreasing the overall enthusiasm and energy of the event that teams have worked so hard to attend.
Cheer: To shout approval, encouragement or congratulation; applaud
Spirited: To impart courage, animation or determination; to inspire
From The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition
In my opinion, team spirit can be shown in many inspiring ways; standing & blocking other’s view of matches is not one of them. Standing as a “visual depiction of excitement” seems unnecessary; I’ve stood in a lot of lines and excitement was never depicted.
Courteous: Similar to polite but implies a more voluntary, generous consideration which is of a helpful nature
From The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition
It is hoped that all spectators and FIRST participants strife to be courteous, both when considering standing in front of others or in freeing up unused seats. I personally remind our team and anyone blocking the view during matches to sit. I’ve never needed to ask a whole team to consider this, usually it is a few spectators who are restless and doing anything but actually watching a match. Permitting others to see what they are at an event to view seems a basic courtesy. Standing when your team or a match score is announced, but not during the match itself, seems a reasonable compromise.
I think there are conflicting principles at work here. The inconvenience of not seeing a 2:15 match versus the desire to express enthusiasm for/inspiration by their team during the short 2:15 that they are on the field. I think FIRST is mainly about inspiring teenage kids to participate in science and technology not about the mentor/sponsor/chaperone spectator experience, though that can be pretty good too. I have experienced the frustration of missing part of a match I was scouting because my view was blocked, but in the big picture I think letting the team in front of me express their enthusiasm is more important to FIRST than my knowing how many tubes team XYZ placed on the rack. The excitement of the matches at the events that makes teams stand and shout encourages me that the program is working:). I think specific rules discouraging simple displays of enthusiasm, for example requiring spectators to sit and be quiet during matches (isn’t it also rude when you can’t hear the announcer over the cheering) should be eschewed.
Perhaps the event organizers should experiment with a separate scouting/no standing section for those who are unable or unwilling to stand during a match.
Just my $.02.
A few years ago, there was a huge hub-bub over FIRST banning noise-making devices from events. Teams despaired of ever being able to express their enormous amounts of spirit without shaker sticks to bang on stands, deafening their neighbors and damaging the venue. Amazingly, FIRST has been largely noisemaker free since 2004 and yet teams still manage to express their enthusiasm somehow. I have to think that students would manage to still be enthused without standing in front of people or forcing more courteous teams into a no-standing ghetto.
Speaking of… I think the non-standing population rather outweighs the standing population at most every event I’ve seen. Why, then, does the standing population get to dictate where everyone else can sit?
Our team stands up during matches. Allthough we probably havnt had such a problem, since we are from Hawaii anhd we are all generally shorter then everyone. So we never really had the problem of everyone shouting at us…they just looked right over us :P.
Just to add to what I had said earlier on in this topic.
A lot of people are mentioning cheering and such throughout the 2:15 of the game. How many people have actually been in the drivers box and tried to hear people chant. I know I have been in there and the only time you can actually here them (unless at a small event) is before the match starts. After the start of the match the music/Announcer are loud enough that the drivers normally can not hear cheering.
Now don’t get me wrong i love people who cheer, because its part of FIRST.
But think about it this way.
If your team in on the field, and you are standing to cheer for them through out the entire match. During that match your robot does something so incredible that it would warrant the #1 pick at the regional/Championship.
However the #1 seeded teams scouting team is seated behind you and because of you standing can not see what your robot does, they can only see what is on the screen (we all know the camera crew isn’t that good about watching what is going on rather than zooming in so close on something that you can see if there is a slight difference in paint layers.)
Now because of this the #1 seed picks another team, then you are picked later… only to be beat by the #1 seed who would have picked your team had they known what you did that match.
This could all be solved if you:
stand for the announcing of the teams, then cheer while sitting down so that everyone can see, the stand after the end of the match.
This makes sure that everyone can see the match, that cheering is still going on, and scouting teams can still do there job.
Just another thought by me.
This does not hold true for the events that I have attended. Most of the individuals who stand are FIRST participants who worked extremely hard to compete. If the spectators complain…it may be because they are unfamiliar with how the competition operates.