What a great idea!
I will have to bring a bag of projectiles to Atlanta next year. :mad:
Eugene
Just as a personal peeve of mine, there’s little to no reason to hide behind the “spirit of what people define as gracious professionalism” as a catch-all for any actions that people view contribute to the competition but that others may have disagreements with. Just as you have pointed out that it could be construed as not being “GP” to politely ask a team to sit down, I could construe it as not being “GP” when I am asked by the same team to not sit in their section of seats that they have attempted to save. (Although that is an actual rule). I certainly would not take offense or question a team’s “GP” if they were saving one or two seats just as a team shouldn’t when they are asked to sit down by another team behind them. As sound and integral the concept of GP may be to FIRST, one runs into the danger of diluting what the message is supposed to be (not that I claim to be an expert on it, but I have a fairly good idea in mind that it wasn’t designed to be applied to the practice of requesting other teams to sit down) when one uses it to hide behind issues that really are more banal than they appear to be.
On the actual topic of the thread, every regional that I have been a part of always has a section marked off in the very front so that teams may kneel and cheer or sometimes stand in close promixity at field level. This stops the issue of cheering and standing up entirely.
I’ll come down on the side of the old fogeys as well, despite my age. Standing in front of other people and blocking their view isn’t nice. I’m certain none of these teams supporting standing would even think about waving a 10’ flag in the stands during their matches and blocking views that way, but they have little problem with blocking views by standing. The only difference is in the magnitude.
As others have said, there are many other people at these competitions, and it’s very cavalier to simply assume they’re all capable of standing or moving about to suit your whims. The disabled, elderly, physically infirm, and pregnant are all unlikely to be able to stand repeatedly or for long periods. Nor are they likely to move about every time a standing team sits in front of them. Ask yourself this:
Would you hesitate to hold a door for one of these people? Help them pick up something they dropped? Assist them up stairs if they asked?
Now, would you change your answer if you were headed to watch a match? More importantly, would you actively cut someone off at a door if you were headed to a match? Would you bump them in haste and cause them to drop things, then run off to see your team?
How about an easy one… Would you seat a team member’s grandmother in a back row, and then have the entire team stand up in front of her? Or pick a seat in front of her and then stand up? Is there any good reason to treat someone else’s grandmother differently?
I know they’re all terribly unfair questions. I suppose it’s unfortunate that it’s a terribly unfair situation to begin with, but you might want to stop and consider just who it’s unfair to.
For anyone who listened to openning ceremonies at Nationals this year, it was once again highlighted that the “G” in “GP” is all about not following the ugly “win at all costs” mentality of some sporting events. Yes we want to win, and support our teams, but NOT “at any cost”.
Standing en-mass throughout an entire match, with COMPLETE disregard to anyone behind you, is simply put, un-gracious. I don’t care how you want to justify it… “we’ve always done it… they do it at football matches… the people behind can stand up too… we’re just showing team spirit”. It’s just egotistical.
You’re basically saying… “for the next 2 1/2 minutes, our participation is more important than yours”. It’s starting to sound like the “I’m drunk and can be as obnoxious as I like” aspect of many sporting events.
It’s also just like the guy who parks his car in the handicapped spot to return his videos. “It’s just for a minute…”
The other problem of maintaining the existing “standing” staus quo is that it starts adversely effecting other FIRST events. For example, at nationals I was trying to watch our Middle School FLL team compete. Anyone who has watched a FLL match knows that it’s hard at the best of times because of the small scale. Even with a big screen you can not get a feel for the play.
When it came time for one of our matches, a group of 20 or so adults stood up about 5 rows in front of us and stayed standing for the entire match. They even held up placards to add another 4 feet to their height. Needless to say, we couldn’t see a thing, even when we also stood up. When a badged FIRST offical (who’s view was obstructed) went down and asked them to sit, they replied “no, our team’s playing”.
OK, let’s look at this for a moment. There were 4 FLL tems playing on the field at that moment, so the parents in question felt that the other 3 sets of supporters didn’t deserve to see their teams play. They also felt that the supporter behind them in the wheelchair also should have been able to stand up to see, and that the FIRST official should just mind her own business.
It’s also interesting that at a coach’s meeting the following day, we were told that the judges were observing all aspects of team dynamics and that poor team (and supporter) behavior on the playing field, in the pits and stands were all factored into awards. Ungracious support behaviour can clearly impact a team’s ability to win an award that depends on GP.
FIRST doesn’t have to make a rule against something for it to be wrong.
It’s already outlawed because it’s UN-GP.
ps:
If you first reaction to my post is “Get over it, we’re going to keep standing up for the full match.”, then you’ve just proved my point.
Phil.
Nearly every person in our team, when in the stands, is scouting a match. Our team is not very large, and it can be difficult for our members to see a match when several people are standing up in front of us. Sure, it is possible to relocate to a better position, but unfortunately, splitting up our team for one match would usually result in our team splitting up for the rest of the day. And odds are, the new spot that we find will be behind another team anyway, thus defeating the purpose of relocation.
Standing in moments of excitement is limitless in the real world. For example, in Congress when a speaker makes a moving speech, members stand. When the President makes a favorable point, individuals stand. At a football game, after a player makes a touchdown, fans stand (sometimes for minutes). Do you think that an individual sitting behind someone who is standing requests that the individual sit down?..No.
Although many consider FRC a sporting event, it does not necessarily hold true to that idea. Sure, FRC is tons of fun and is great to watch, but there is a difference between wanting to watch a match and needing to watch a match. I (and my team as well) never stand during a match, but we do stand up and cheer when our team is announced and after the final score is announced. I can sympathize with the teams behind us that are scouting, so I will not block someone’s view just so I can get a better look at our robot.
Please provide examples. The only thing that I can think of is cheering…waving flags or other items would probably be labeled as "ungracious” as well.
Cheering and chanting during a match is okay. However, you may do whatever you want as long as it is not during the match. I suppose that if winning the team spirit award is that important to a team during the competition, then I am afraid that that team has failed to identify things that are more important than winning an award. To me, it’s more rewarding to know that I made someone else happy or to display GP, rather than winning an award at the expense of others.
This isn’t standing, it is simply sitting.
On Saturday afternoon in Atlanta, there were a couple of times when I was told to move at the top of the stands when I took a seat. I have a young spirit but oldish knees and they wanted to sit a spell. It proved a little harder to do than I had anticipated.
In spite of many years of a rule to the contrary, seat saving is alive and well at FIRST events. Part of the problem is that the rule against seat saving is not well posted at the events, and the majority of the people in the stands have not read, nor do they care that much about, the rule on seat saving. Perhaps signs should be posted at every portal to enter the stands, so people can’t say they have not seen the rule.
I am pretty much in the pits when my team is competing, coming up into the stands to see the team and robot perform for each match that lasts a little more than two minutes, and I get hassled pretty much every time I take a seat for that. Many seats are being saved and I come and go long before any of the missing people fill them.
I try to tell people I will only be there for the match, and will get up if someone comes. Most of the time I get eventual acceptance of my temporary presence, but sometimes not and I have to try for another seat. Getting hassled by people who are saving a row of empty seats is just as unpleasant as having a group stand up in front of you, blocking your view of the match that you have made the long walk up from the pits to see.
I am not one to instigate an international incident over the matter, but it would sure be nice if people in the stands would get the message on the issue and let people sit and watch matches, as FIRST says they are supposed to be able to. It would be nice if people standing, knowing full well that they are blocking the view of many others, showed a little common courtesy as well. I find the notion of someone arguing that they should be allowed to block the view of others, and calling them rude for complaining about it, just a little over the top.
Eugene
I do understand some of your concerns. However, it was never stated that team’s stood for the purpose of winning an award. By mentioning this, you are challenging the overall integrity of teams (when most have been extremely productive in spreading awareness, aiding others – and engaging in other positive efforts).
In no way am I call titling those who are suggesting that teams sit down as “rude.” - Each person is entitled to their opinion. However, as I have previous stated, standing is a visual depiction of excitement (as it pertains to the competition) and support for ones team, its drivers, and FIRST in general. Rudely prompting that a team do sit down - by means of throwing, yelling, using vulgar language, or engaging in inappropriate arguments with mentors and students — all who are extremely excited is not gracious. By doing this - members become upset and frustrated…decreasing the overall enthusiasm and energy of the event that teams have worked so hard to attend.
Cheer: To shout approval, encouragement or congratulation; applaud
Spirited: To impart courage, animation or determination; to inspire
From The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition
In my opinion, team spirit can be shown in many inspiring ways; standing & blocking other’s view of matches is not one of them. Standing as a “visual depiction of excitement” seems unnecessary; I’ve stood in a lot of lines and excitement was never depicted.
Courteous: Similar to polite but implies a more voluntary, generous consideration which is of a helpful nature
From The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition
It is hoped that all spectators and FIRST participants strife to be courteous, both when considering standing in front of others or in freeing up unused seats. I personally remind our team and anyone blocking the view during matches to sit. I’ve never needed to ask a whole team to consider this, usually it is a few spectators who are restless and doing anything but actually watching a match. Permitting others to see what they are at an event to view seems a basic courtesy. Standing when your team or a match score is announced, but not during the match itself, seems a reasonable compromise.
I think there are conflicting principles at work here. The inconvenience of not seeing a 2:15 match versus the desire to express enthusiasm for/inspiration by their team during the short 2:15 that they are on the field. I think FIRST is mainly about inspiring teenage kids to participate in science and technology not about the mentor/sponsor/chaperone spectator experience, though that can be pretty good too. I have experienced the frustration of missing part of a match I was scouting because my view was blocked, but in the big picture I think letting the team in front of me express their enthusiasm is more important to FIRST than my knowing how many tubes team XYZ placed on the rack. The excitement of the matches at the events that makes teams stand and shout encourages me that the program is working:). I think specific rules discouraging simple displays of enthusiasm, for example requiring spectators to sit and be quiet during matches (isn’t it also rude when you can’t hear the announcer over the cheering) should be eschewed.
Perhaps the event organizers should experiment with a separate scouting/no standing section for those who are unable or unwilling to stand during a match.
Just my $.02.
A few years ago, there was a huge hub-bub over FIRST banning noise-making devices from events. Teams despaired of ever being able to express their enormous amounts of spirit without shaker sticks to bang on stands, deafening their neighbors and damaging the venue. Amazingly, FIRST has been largely noisemaker free since 2004 and yet teams still manage to express their enthusiasm somehow. I have to think that students would manage to still be enthused without standing in front of people or forcing more courteous teams into a no-standing ghetto.
Speaking of… I think the non-standing population rather outweighs the standing population at most every event I’ve seen. Why, then, does the standing population get to dictate where everyone else can sit?
Our team stands up during matches. Allthough we probably havnt had such a problem, since we are from Hawaii anhd we are all generally shorter then everyone. So we never really had the problem of everyone shouting at us…they just looked right over us :P.
Just to add to what I had said earlier on in this topic.
A lot of people are mentioning cheering and such throughout the 2:15 of the game. How many people have actually been in the drivers box and tried to hear people chant. I know I have been in there and the only time you can actually here them (unless at a small event) is before the match starts. After the start of the match the music/Announcer are loud enough that the drivers normally can not hear cheering.
Now don’t get me wrong i love people who cheer, because its part of FIRST.
But think about it this way.
If your team in on the field, and you are standing to cheer for them through out the entire match. During that match your robot does something so incredible that it would warrant the #1 pick at the regional/Championship.
However the #1 seeded teams scouting team is seated behind you and because of you standing can not see what your robot does, they can only see what is on the screen (we all know the camera crew isn’t that good about watching what is going on rather than zooming in so close on something that you can see if there is a slight difference in paint layers.)
Now because of this the #1 seed picks another team, then you are picked later… only to be beat by the #1 seed who would have picked your team had they known what you did that match.
This could all be solved if you:
stand for the announcing of the teams, then cheer while sitting down so that everyone can see, the stand after the end of the match.
This makes sure that everyone can see the match, that cheering is still going on, and scouting teams can still do there job.
Just another thought by me.
This does not hold true for the events that I have attended. Most of the individuals who stand are FIRST participants who worked extremely hard to compete. If the spectators complain…it may be because they are unfamiliar with how the competition operates.
Maybe they’d become familiar with how the competition operates if they could see it? :rolleyes:
C’mon, coreyk – you are part of a Hall of Fame team with a long tradition of promoting the goals of FIRST. You should know, without the old fogeys on CD having to remind you, that those goals are not served by displaying your own enthusiasm while preventing others from seeing the event.
In regional competitions I have gone to in my 3 years to I would say 95%(ok, maybe an exageration, but the vast majority) of people stood up while there robot was up to play. I agree at any given time, there are more people sitting than standing, but, that doesn’t mean that most people don’t stand.
I’m afraid I’m with Corey on this one. I get at least as much kick out of watching the kids at competition as I do watching the bots. In my observation the kids who are participants (i.e. helped build/design a bot) get pretty excited when their team is playing and are likely to be standing–not every team, but most teams. In a typical match only a few teams are standing (i.e. match participants), but throughout the day most of the kids get excited at some point and stand. Just like members of a high school basketball team.
IMHO the difference between this and most other spectator events is that the bulk of the participants are in the stands and not on the field. The kid who wired the robot or programmed the controls is as much of a participant as the driver and in my opinion has earned your forbearance for 2:15 if she stands to watch her creation perform. I believe FIRST cherishes her joy in participation in science and technology. This is the distinction that tempers my annoyance about having my view obstructed by the team that is playing. It’s just like sitting behind the bench at a basketball game. I agree that it is unfortunate that the nature of the competition and the venues does not permit most of the team members to be on the sidelines of the field where they are not obstructing the view of nonparticipants, but I think letting the kids stand and cheer is a tradition in many competitions and in most competitions team members on the sidelines are not required to sit thoughout the game.
BTW my brother in law and sister in law (previously unfamiliar with FIRST and my benchmark for what outsiders think) thought it was “priceless” the way it was at MWR.
I’ve read and given thought to everyone’s post in this thread, yet I’ve found no particular evidence to sway my line of thinking.
IMHO, many of the posts on this thread are close-minded and frankly, hate to say it, ungracious. Stating outright that people standing up are being unsportsmanlike or un-GP because they’re expressing their excitement and joy for competing in such a respectable program in concerning to me. Neg-rep me if you want, I don’t care. It’s just my opinion and unless I see enough evidence to sway my position, then it probably won’t change.
You mean the intense cheer-off between 648 and 1710 nearly the entire weekend? Or 107 and 648 cheering for each other during matches, even when they played against each other?
Ha, apologies if my posts may have come across that way. Personally, I do not find it “bad” to stand up in a match, merely (potentially) inconvenient for other teams behind you. I am sure that every participant at the event has put a lot of work into their robot, and I suppose that different people have different ways to show for it. I guess it’s a personal choice, more than anything.
To me, the GP thing to do is to let everyone see and enjoy the product of your hard work. I enjoy watching every other robot participate as much as my own, no matter how spectacular or cool certain ones may be. I appreciate everyone’s efforts equally, but when I don’t have a chance to see some robots in action, it can get a little frustrating when you don’t have the opportunity to see your friends or other teams participate.
Once again, I apologize if my posts may have appeared to be ungracious or impolite.
OK, so you clearly see that this particular aspect of your team’s behavior is upsetting to others, and a REAL cause for REDUCED enthusiasm. You explain quite clearly that some normally reasonable people on both sides are transformed into vulgar individuals. It probably doesn’t happen right away, but after several matches of no-compromise the enevitable happens… tempers flair.
It’s possible that you could convince each one of those “sitting” spectators that they don’t really need to see that match… but be prepared for those same people to stop coming to events because they lose interest in seeing sets of backsides during EVERY match (that’s what will happen if every team stands during their match). Those people are parents, coaches, SPONSORS, and young kides getting ready to enter highschool. Is that really what you want?
Think hard now… isn’t there something simple that you could do as a team to stop this escalation? Something that would show how you are aware of the situation, and willing to go the extra mile to improve the enjoyment of the many, vs. that of the few?
You may not be convinced, and you may not see a compelling reason to compromise (let the “others” do it). But wait… isn’t that the whole point?
Doing something that you don’t have to… but that will clearly benefit others?
It won’t cost you matches or points, or awards or medals… Teams don’t win spirit awards because they stand up during matches. They win them because they have an identity and work as a group. Standing as a group during matches was a result of that unity… but teams should not be defined by it.
Some things work will when only one team does it, but if everyone does it then you have a problem. Here’s the classic example. A fire alarm goes off in a crowded cinema, if one person gets up and makes a mad dash for the door while everyone else is calmly walking out, then the mad dash person has a great chance of getting out alive. However, if everyone makes a mad dash, then probably noone will get out.