We all know what the ‘F’ in RTFM stands for, and it’s not FIRST. So I’d like to ask everyone to stop with the one line RTFM posts. It’s rude and unnecessary. There are far better ways to help people with their problems than swearing at them and telling them to read the manual. Try pointing them to a specific section and politely remind to read the manual. I’ve listened to far too many new CD users complain about the rude and harsh treatment they’ve received.
This is the right way to answer a question. If you don’t have the time or desire to answer a question this way, then don’t post. No post is much better than some of the rudeness we’ve been seeing.
It comes down to something simple, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it all. I mean, I know we all get frustrated during build season, but we still need to make an effort to be polite and helpful.
I had been meaning to post something like this today at some point – this “read the manual” or ‘RTFM’ or ‘search!’ auto-response is unnecessary. Katie has the right idea … I’d hope those of us who have been around for a while would be able to help as much as Katie. Help a person out politely on how to properly ask, search, etc., and they’ll start to do it the right way. If not … then take it up with them in e-mail/private message and make sure they know what’s wrong with how they’re asking questions.
If these one-word, rude responses continue we may have the moderators start removing them. I’d hate to have to add one more task to the moderators’ jobs, so let’s try to be proactive and helpful, rather than trying to be the first to say ‘hey, read the manual.’
I really do agree with you for the most part. There is often a lack of respect shown to those who make mistakes and it has been discussed before.
However, have you noticed a lot of people’s signatures lately? Some clever person altered the acronym “RTFM” to mean “Read The FIRST Manual” - a much more polite version of the original term. Many people have adopted it and put it in their signature. It is possible that the use of “RTFM” has increased because people are embracing the new variation (possibly unaware that others might not get the reference).
In order to avoid perceived vulgarity, I think people should make it clear that they mean “Read The FIRST Manual”. If they *do *in fact mean to use the impolite version, then yes, Karthik - they should cut it out.
True true… A while ago I tried to do a spoof thread showing people how annoying it was, and got caught up in it. I think I may have gone too far when I photo shopped Dave’s head onto a dictator’s…
That particular mistake was OK, though, because we only live to learn.
ON TO THE MATTER AT HAND!
I believe that kindly telling people to Read the manual is fine, if you give the specific reference in the manual, and avoid negative repping people*. However, when you start replying with a mean “RTFM!” or a dry/sarcastic “The answer is in the manual.” and serve out negative rep like Turkish delight, Then you are only serving to make things worse.
Just some thoughts,
-Cody C
I’ve seen too many people with one post -a question, nonetheless- and one or two bars of negative rep. This should stop.
Seconded. What I’ve done in the past is give them the answer, but also point them in the right direction as far as clarification. I wasn’t trying to be rude, but it’s also nice, on occaison, to be reminded of a much easier way to solve problems [one that won’t have the potential to annoy others]
Essentially, it shouldn’t be used as a reprimand. Just a friendly nudge.
I think the point Karthik is trying to make is that although it is commonly accepted to most of the people around here that it means “Read the FIRST Manual,” it doesn’t matter. We all know where the phrase was derived from, and that even though we’ve changed what the letter says, we haven’t changed the meaning of the phrase.
However, I’m definitely for not just giving answers. If I can post any rules question I want, and people will just hand me the rule quoted, then why should I bother to read the manual. Although posting “RTFM” or any other one-liner, is counterproductive, perhaps when someone asks for an obvious the rule, the best thing would be to gently point them to the section or give them the rule number, and have them look it for themselves.
When debating though, always quote the rule in the post. It makes it easier for everyone.
Honestly, I’m only going to say this once, and it’s going to be short, sweet, and to the point… I hope.
1.) Have you looked at who is asking some of the questions that are so “irritating” to you? I would be willing to bet that they are rookies, who may not have been taught what all can be found in the manual, and where exactly to look for it… most of the team members are busy on the bot, so there may not be someone to ask. Obviously, they’re confused/frustrated enough with they’re problem, they don’t need yelling and disrespect by a fellow FIRSTer on top of all that…
2.) Be real… at one point in time, you were a rookie who didn’t know a lot about what was going on and you had the same kinds of questions that people are asking. Tell them politely where to find it, but don’t yell at them. FIRST is not just about building the bot… it’s about gracious professionalism and building relationships with other high school students. Disrespecting them and treating them poorly is not a good example of gracious professionalism, nor is it a way to further the relationships with high school students.
Therefore, “RTFM” posts don’t really comply with what FIRST is about… at all…
I got a “RTFM” and a negative rep for making a joke.
Im glad people take things so seriously. And for the other people who dont know what something is, you dont need to yell at them, everyone was new once and it takes someone to show them.
And to tell the truth saying things like “use the search function” and “RTFM” make you look like a whiner who’s only interest is to correct someone and make them feel awkward. Make everyone feel welcome and answer their questions the way they would like them to be answered or at least answer their question first and say that similar information could be found if “blablabla” is typed into the search function. Otherwise you’re making the thread even more useless by posting unnecessary comments.
How about this: Teach them by example in your answer.
Example:
I searched ChiefDelphi.com with the words “Fisher Price Gearbox” and found the following threads that could have helped you…
The rules are broke up in a few sections. Robot rules are in Section XYZ and Game rules are in Section NMO. Your question covers both sections so you need to read both sections closely…
Being rude is easy. Being a compassionate human being takes work.
I have often come across posts with “search first!” as the only response. I know that there are talented people on this forum that have an extreme ability to search the forum… others do not. I am one of those that don’t. I don’t know a thing about booleans or whatnot and am impatient when it comes down to looking through threads for a specific answer. I also hate to get told to “search first!!!11!!1!one” and that’s all that person has in their post. Really annoying and immature.
When I was younger, 2004 I think, I accidentally clicked the post thread button twice and I got my butt handed to me multiple times via neg rep. It was a simple mistake. Young people make mistakes. Older people make mistakes. Heck, even I make mistakes.
I’ve always wanted to know if there are actually people on this forum that are dead set on finding mistakes by people so they can shove them out into the road to get chewed up by the neg rep givers. It’s annoying and lame. So thank you Karthik. You just did what I had been contemplating on doing for the past week or so… just never got around to it.
The same as what I said goes for the “RTFM” posts, also.
I agree one hundred percent. Last year I asked a question about one of the parts in the KoP, and I got two negative reps with “read the manual,” and although I agreed that I should have read it over again, I thought it took more time to actually type out the post and negitve rep me than it would to “CTRL+F” the awnser from a merged manual.
There is a nicer phrase if you must refer to using a phrase called “RTMP” which I have found no vulgur interpritations for which means’ Read the Manual Please,’ which is a bit nicer but still impolite that someone still told you too look at the manual and post rather than to take a few minutes of their time to to “help” a fellow FIRSTer.
Hmm. I always thought RTFM meant “Rice. Toronto’s Favorite Meal.”
One other drawback to “RTFM” posts is that other teams may think you have answered a question. If a thread pops up that looks interesting, with say 3 or 4 responses, I’ll check it out. It seems that more often than not, the first post is a question, then the next 2 or 3 are variations of “RTFM.” So not only are the RTFMers being rude to the thread starter, but they’re wasting the valuable time of members of other teams, not to mention the moderators.
I absolutely agree with Taylor, while saying RTFM gets the point across, it doesn’t help ANYONE. Katie’s post was invaluable, and I thank her for it. And remember, not everyone has the time to sit and read every detail of the FIRST Manual. I garauntee there is a section in it that I don’t know at all. And rather than sitting down and searching the entire manual for a small question, it’s a lot easier to ask for reference from my other CDers. =)
Thats what my team does. Since its only me and another person on our team thats active on CD, i am always asked the question “was there anything on CD about it yet?” or “Go post it on CD and see what they think”
People often tell me their RTFM posts are because people asking redundant questions answered in the manual clutter the forums. Well here’s a newsflash, posting “RTFM” and nothing else is going to bring your thread to the top of the portal, and fill it up with something truly useless.
Seriously, if you’re so high up on your pedestal you can only be bothered to scold others without actually doing anything helpful, then please just shut up.
Yes, I said shut up, yes it’s rude, so are the people that just say RTFM and nothing else.
If someone posts something obviously in the manual, then post the section, or their answer and a reminder to look at the manual, maybe a hint on how to found certain bits and pieces. I can say as a programmer I focused on those aspects of the manual and its a big manual, so its not always intuitive where the other stuff is, it’s pretty easy to miss stuff. We can all help promote manual reading by helping people understand how to find things, and by encouraging (not berating!) them to look in the manual more deeply.
Oh, you know I have something to say about all of this.
I agree that RTFM as an ONLY response is very rude.
That said, the RTFM responses should stop as a single entity in a response.
Libby’s example was kinda funny though I’ll admit. I laughed and gave her some positive rep for having a sense of humor, something some people on these forums obviously lack…
Anyways… to respond to the whole RTFM thing as a whole… I have a comment.
When someone asks a question here 5 minutes after kickoff (which happens EVERY year, that is kind of annoying, and probably does deserve a RTFM response… Sit back and read the manual for a few hours AFTER watching the kickoff and BEFORE instantly coming here to ask a question. Kind of annoying… yes… it is. Don’t lie to yourself. Everyone here has been annoyed at posts at one time. Even this thread is proof of that.
Right now though, if I see a RTFM as a response, I feel bad for the person posting cause by now if they have questions, they probably already read the manual where they thought it would be.
I can’t lie, I have not read the manual at all this year. :o I am a little less involved in FIRST in build season as a whole than I have been in previous years. That said, with 6 weeks of build, and more until the events start, I expect everyone on my team to understand the manual, the game, and the rules enough to proceed without asking questions that can EASILY be defined in the manual very clearly. Everyone in FIRST has plenty of time to read the manual. Do it.
If you don’t, then obviously you are not that dedicated to the program and should not be asking questions.
Ok, I’ll have to respond to this one in 2 parts.
“was there anything on CD about it yet?”
Good idea. If someone already asked for something to be clarified, no need for you to ask again. Awesome thought process.
“Go post it on CD and see what they think”
Also a good idea, and ONLY because of the words “what they think”. Remember CD and the people posting here are not official answers. You can only get those directly from FIRST and the Q&A system. No one should act as an official agent of FIRST on here (minus a few folks - Such as Dave, but even his posts say something to the effect of “I know inside info, but to be absolutely sure you get a right answer and to make it completely official, please ask the Q&A” - Smart guy that Dave character. )
All of us are learning, and trying to teach at the same time with the game, and the competition. Which brings me to the next quote:
Yes, I agree with Matt completely. If you think you have enough knowledge to post a RTFM reply, get off your high horse, and actually start helping.
Post the section, and a bulleted <X> type thing to steer someone in the right direction.
The manual is the easiest thing to quote in the world. Just post:
<R1>
or something similar as a response if you are too lazy to type an answer.
Guess what?
The example of <R1> is the same length characters as RTFM so you won’t be wasting any more time typing if that’s what you are worried about doing.
If that’s not the issue, then just go bug your team and build a bot and stop posting here if you can’t post nicely.