Sustainability In FRC Teams

FIRST General Forum
1

I wrote this post in the 2011 Registration thread and it was not the place for it. If anyone is interested in discussing or sharing your thoughts on current and future sustainability in FRC, this could be a place to do that. I’d like to see FIRST become extremely proactive in this area, acknowledging that it needs a lot of thought, work, effort, development, and implementation of a program to aid/train teams in team sustainability - esp. the younger and more vulnerable FRC teams.

Sincerely,
Jane

2

I know most of the talk has been about money and I agree it’s important but I have seen more that my fair share of teams fail because of loss of leadership.

So many teams have that one leader that is the glue that hold the team together. When that leader leaves the team the team looses direction and is lost.

It can happen for so many reasons but the one I think needs addressed is burnout. We have all experienced it. You put so much of your time and soul into the program that other areas of your life are neglected and fall apart or people simply get tired. Most team members don’t have a clue how many hours these key people put into the team every year.

I would like to see the FIRST community address this problem and come up with a way to help team members help sustain those key team leaders. Maybe a care and feeding guide for the key leadership. Ways to support and show appreciation for the mentors and sponsors that hold teams together before it’s too late and they are lost.

3

Recently we did a thing on helping teams with the sustainability issue. It was recorded and posted online.

GeorgiaFIRST has posted a lecture on team sustainability in 3 parts on the GeorgiaFIRST youtube channel.

You can find it here in the “Mentor Resources” area.

Credit is due to a variety of people and groups.

There are slides adapted from a presentation by Team 234 Cyber Blue.

The ideas pertaining to leadership and strategic analysis techniques are derived from lectures by professor Dutch Leonard et. al. of the Harvard Business School.

4

**
From Bob Steele: **

*do think that we need to see more support from FIRST in the arena of Fundraising.
i remember that last year it was a big deal at Kickoff… to date… Where are these programs?
I haven’t seen anything of substance yet… I had thought we would have some kind of
“Green” fundraising activities fleshed out by FIRST and presented by now…

FIRST needs to find ways to help veteran teams raise money… Rookie teams seem to find a way of coming up with the necessary funds and so many of the grant programs are earmarked for these new teams… *
*
I hope to see some real ideas from FIRST on how to SUSTAIN teams and not just how to
CREATE teams…*
**
From www.usfirst .org:**
FIRST Receives Grant From Google
Google is providing FIRST with a $3 million grant to develop and jump start new student-driven robotics team fundraising programs that will empower more student teams to participate in FIRST. More details coming soon.

From me:
Eagerly awaiting word on what this will look like. The way I read this it covers new teams AND veteran teams, teaching them techniques to fish. Is my interpretation incorrect?

5

You beat me to it. I hope there are lots of responses.

It seems to me there are two main reasons for teams to stop, money and lack of interest. I have read lots of good ideas on fundraising on CD, less on the interest side. In my one year of experience it seems that most students that get involved want to stay involved. If this is not true on a team, is it a leadership issue?

It seems a lot harder attracting new students, and maybe mentors. It is hard to get people to take the first step. I talk about FIRST way too much and have many people tell me how good a program it is and really appear excited, then never show up to events or follow through with their kids.

Maybe FIRST needs to spend some money on advertising. Most of the people I mention it to have not heard about it or don’t know much about it. They certainly have no clue when the events are.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, but it disturbs me to think of students being exposed to FIRST only to have their team fold.

6

Some of these suggestions were wrapped into the original mission of the FIRST Senior Mentor project, especially re: support and recognition. I’m retired from the Senior Mentor project so can’t speak to what the priorities are now.

FIRST recently did hire someone to focus on the following issues:

*The Volunteer Resources Coordinator for Mentor/Coach Relations is responsible for developing and coordinating a mentor/coach services and communications program for all FIRST programs including the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC), FIRST LEGO League (FLL) and FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC.) This position is part of the Volunteer Resources team that recruits, trains, and recognizes FIRST volunteers. The Mentor/Coach Program Services Coordinator will identify Mentor and Coach recruitment and training practices currently used by FIRST and communications methods and, in collaboration with designated program staff, design and implement approved upgrades and enhancements in these areas. This position will also act as the designated Volunteer Resources liaison to FIRST departments and programs
*

7

A few years ago our team helped to secure a $300,000 grant to help start the Boston regional and create many FRC teams in the Greater Boston area.

The grants given to teams were to last for 3 years, at which point the teams were expected to have grown to a sustainable level with their own sponsorship. Many many teams fell apart as soon as the grant went away.

Still, many teams that have held on have a tough time getting through build season. Our team has helped any team that has come to us in need. This includes purchasing many components/material for teams that have come by, in addition to utilizing our machining, fundraising and mentoring resources. Typically by the end of build season we are sharing our lab with at least 5 other teams and traveling to/corresponding with dozens more.

It certainly puts a drain on our team, but we need to work with these teams like this to keep them going. BostonFIRST started a regional mentoring program a few years ago to help combat some of the issues I’ve discussed. Essentially it’s a collection of mentors from the Boston area which has been assembled to support struggling teams that attend the Boston regional. The program has certainly helped, but I really think the big initiative needs to come from Manchester to have a truly lasting effect.

-Brando

8

While asking “FIRST” for a solution seems like the thing to do, I would instead paraphrase a famous leader:

“Ask not what FIRST can do for you, ask what you can do for FIRST.”

Issues: Leadership, Mentorship, Sponsorship, Resources (space, tools, …)

Here are some things my team is trying to do. I like synergies, so I try to promote ideas that benefit 2-3 areas witha single action.

Leadership/Mentorship/Help Rookies:
College Students: I am not a big fan of college students being mentors in college. I do however think they are a key to solving many problems. There are many design competitions that students can compete in and gain leadership skills and the tools necessary to become technical mentors. There is a significant lack for organizational and team leadership opportunites. the proposal is to have a club at colleges as universities put on a 1 day clinic on Mechanical, electical, and programming of the Kit-Bot. This clinic would occur early in the build season. This program would give college students the opportunity to stay involved in FIRST, work with Alumni from other teams, and come together to organize an event. There is resource scheduling, budgeting, coordination,… All the “tools” necessary to put on an event. From these clubs, you would be promoting the skill-sets necessary for Robot Inspectors, Mentors, Team Leaders/Mentors, and Event Leaders (think future kick-off coordinators and/or Regional Planners). I have a couple students in Oakland interested in doing this, but help would greatly be appreciated.

Resources/Mentorship:
Last year Michigan University teamed up with Detroit Public Schools to set up a common shop that teams could build in. This program is called the MEZ (Michigan Engineering Zone). I haven’t been able to attend any of their events in person yet, but this is a Great idea and a great way to share resources.

Leadership/College student:
We tried an interesting program on our team this last year. It really got started by a former student Buying a book for me. The book was “Tribal Leadership”. While it starts a bit slow, it is a wonderful book that addresses personality types and leadership formats within small groups. IndySam, wanna know why these “all or nothing” leaders exist? Wanna know how to fix it? Check out tribal leadership. You can actually download the audio version through Zappos.com for free. Yes free! I believe that Zappos pays the publisher for the downloads. If this doesn’t make sense, it will by the time you finish the book. We have passed books around the team, and share verbally lessons learned from the different things we read.
This would be a good practice to spread. While the handing books from person to person has worked well within our team and close friends, we have had issues getting it to spread further. We tried a couple ideas with regards to “seeding” the community, but that hasn’t take off yet. If you read JVN’s design blog, he had a post on IDEO’s idea future books. He commented on one of the models and mentioned wanting to know what “Woody Flowers” read. If we were to incorporate that idea with some web based tools, I think there might be something worth-while there. There is a linked-in great spreading great articles and websites. I also think that because reading a book is so time intensive, imagine if instead you could go through and get a good synopsis on the book. In many MBA programs, they intentionally give you too much to read, that way you have to rely on discussing cases with others. The idea is that through the sharing process you will gain much of the knowledge in a lot less time. This kind of community is begging for a FB app, or for someone to start on Blogspot or … or … Allow amazon to advertise books on it, and it might even be a money maker.

Sponsorship/Mentorship/Taxes:
There is an old saying, “Time is Money”. I would love to see really become true. I have an idea for a tax rebate for mentor based programs. If a taxpayer that pays above a certain amount of taxes (yet to be determined) volunteers time in a mentorship program, then that program would be able to file for a tax return form where up to the first 200 hrs. of the mentors time would be matched at the national minimum wage. This would make teams want to get mentors, and would help mentors “rationalize” some of their time better. The 200 hour cap is specific for a number of reasons. Programs would have to apply for these funds, and there would likely need to be a special section of 501c3 corporations. I have sent in a couple emails to senators and political parties trying to find out how to get a proposal together. If anyone knows how proposals get attention, please PM me. I think this program could get passed as the current First lady is big on promoting mentorship programs, and I have a feeling that a “tax cut” congress will be in session this next year. Maybe we(first people) could finally get them(gov people) to agree on something.

Sponsoship: Observation
We are doing something wrong. Well, wrong may be a strong word, but definitely not optimally. Many teams struggle to find funding to go to the Championship. Many schools do not allow for carry-over budget so teams end up being forced to spend Championship contingency funds.

9

And to add another phrase:

“Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime”

IMHO -
Sustainability is something the FIRST community should be addressing and is NOT something that Manchester should be dealing with. Manchester has other fish to fry. I don’t think that ‘centrally planned’ sustainability efforts will be one hundredth as effective as students maintaining a presence in front of the public and transmitting a steady drip drip of positive messages to their community.

I don’t like the idea that we teach students or foster an attitude that we always look to ‘HQ’ for all the answers. We will be in much better shape as a society to teach students how to run an effective organizations, for-profit, and non-profit. We should teach students how to solve problems, not delegate problems upward.

Having finished with that rant…where do we go from here ? Do we need to create a top ten list of things to do that make sure that teams are on track to staying sustainable.

I’ll start off

1 - thank your sponsors, during the summer, show them examples of impact

2

3

etc…

10

I think you are shrugging off peoples concerns a little too quickly here. I know many mentors who are attempting to help many teams and struggle to get through a season. Look at some of the posts in this thread already and others scattered throughout CD and you will see a considerable number of mentors stressing how difficult it is to maintain teams.

I don’t think anyone is asking that HQ step up and handle this on their own, but we’re kind of asking them to help us, help them.

-Brando

11

If we’re going to start our own sustainability initiative, we need to consider why teams drop out, and target that.

Up here in SD, the half-dozen or so teams that used to be here back around 5 years ago are all gone. They were funded by a grant, and when the grantor had to cut back on funding due to other things, they dropped out, except for one. That one team is no longer in FRC. I can think of another 4-5 teams in and around L.A. that have dropped out for whatever reason, funding included.

Most of the teams that I know about that have dropped have not been able (or, not been willing) to raise the funds needed to compete. Some went to FTC or VRC, as both of those are cheaper, but others seem to have vanished entirely. Very few have disappeared due to lack of students/mentors.

12

I don’t want to sound like I’m shrugging anything off. I just think we, the community of FIRST’ers, need to some up with a concise way to help help teams understand how to run a sustainable organization independent of input from an ‘HQ’.

#1 - thank the sponsors
#2 - get some press coverage
#3 - do presentations all throughout the off season
#4 - ??

13

I think everyone agrees funding is a big issue… If a team can’t develop multiple independent sources of funding, when one company drops out it becomes a huge deal. Even if there are plenty of mentors and students involved with the team, if you can’t come up with enough funding to get the KoP and a regional, the team is finished.

And, as others stated, leadership is also a big deal. Without good leadership, a team will fall apart. The biggest issue with this has to be finding new mentors to replace old ones. For us, two years ago our electrical mentor moved to California, and thus couldn’t help with the team anymore. Ever since then, I’ve been filling in at the position, but I’m not an electrical engineer. I know there’s so much more an EE could help the kids with… but we can’t find one to work with the team.

Frankly, given the thousands of students FIRST graduates every year, I find it shocking that we don’t have more of them coming back to mentor. Yes, some do… but many don’t. I think the biggest problem with that is a lack of involvement with FIRST in college. Being a college mentor is hard, and making the transition from hands-on working on the robot one year to standing back and helping the next is very difficult… difficult enough to discourage people. Having the time to be a valuable part of the team while in college is incredibly hard.

FIRST has been “growing backwards” for a long time now. The focus has been on getting kids involved at younger and younger ages (FTC, FLL, Jr. FLL), and developing a program that guides them from elementary school up through high school. And it’s done a great job with that… However it all pretty much just stops there. We assume that we can provide the influence to get kids into engineering in college, but we don’t go on to support them once they are at an engineering school. We hand them off to professional engineering societies and let them proceed without us. They get involved with those societies and stay involved with them after they graduate.

What first really needs at this point is a college program. Something that can accommodate the students schedule with a longer, less intense build season that doesn’t require 40 hours per week of work. Something that lets them be hands-on with the robot, building and shaping it, while introducing more leadership and mentoring opportunities (possibly through workshops or camps designed for the other FIRST programs). Keep those kids involved with FIRST throughout college, and we’ll start seeing a lot more of them coming back to help mentor teams after they graduate. And when they do, they’ll bring the thousands of companies that don’t already sponsor FIRST they work for with them. It’s a win-win that helps with both of our biggest issues.

14

I can’t quite see this as a positive idea. The bigger picture goal is to spread the FIRST culture throughout society, and keeping college-age students closely tied to FIRST would likely end up making them more insulated from the rest of the world. If we want to transform that world, the professional engineering societies need them more than FIRST does.

The way I see it, sustainability shouldn’t mean keeping individuals in FIRST longer. It should mean giving teams the ability to survive even when specific individuals leave. It should mean giving them the ability to survive even when they lose specific sources of funding. It should be about team continuity, not about personal lifetime commitment (though such commitment can be a large help in making the rest happen).

15

In MI. several teams banded together and formed a group called MMRA (Mid Michigan Robotic Alliance). Currently there are 12 due paying members with a couple more teams asking to join this year. We joined together to not only help and support each other during build but to also approach businesses for money.

We felt that it would be easier for our group to ask for money from people like the UAW and grant monies. Companies would rather write 1 check and see there name on 12 robots rather then 1 check 1 robot.

Each team must help out in several areas in order to receive any monies raised. Ex. run a Lego team, send 2 volunteers to help in a concession booth during Districts, help put on the Kettering Kickoff in the fall, participate in a public awareness opportunity such as Back To the Bricks which is a giant auto cruise/show, etc.

Currently every team except 1 in Genesee and Lapeer Counties are involved. We also have an Oakland County team involved. We meet 4-6 times a year to discuss our ideas and work on fund raisers. We are a 501 3c organization, have officers, sub groups etc. I know this model won’t work for everybody but it is certainly helping all of us.

16

It doesn’t have to be an either/or thing in college. Having FIRST actively involved on campus every year will create even more interaction with the professional societies. A college FIRST program would jump at the chance to work with all of the other engineering societies on campus to promote and celebrate eWeek, for example.

If we could get just 10% of current FIRST students to give 4 years of mentoring after college, teams wouldn’t have a problem finding new mentors when old ones get burned out, move, or have to focus on other life commitments. One person, fresh out of college working some place that hasn’t been exposed to FIRST can get that company involved in just a year or two. It would help provide a constant influx of new leadership, mentors, and companies.

17

I’m basically with Alan on this one. I do not think FIRST should be in college for many reasons.

These students need need to focus on school and move on to new and fresh experiences. A time will come when they will return to FIRST as educated and experienced mentors. It may be in a future job or when they have kids but the day will come.

There is a large pool of potential mentors out there right now that are fresh and motivated. They just need to be recruited. They need to learn more about FIRST type programs. If properly presented they will come. And when they come there is a possibility that due to their presence funding might improve. Either because their company has an allowance to give to initiatives that their employees are involved in, or they may know someone that can donate, or they have some talent in fundraising.

In a little over two weeks MIT will be releasing the 1st in a series of short videos that you can use to help with mentor recruitment. It is from an effort called the MIT Mentorship Initiative.

Stay tuned.

18

Sustainability is a real issue in FIRST. I think there are several contributors.

Most teams rely on a single “Angel” sponsor for the majority of their funding. When that Angel disappears, sustaining their team becomes very difficult.

For instance, a number of long-term teams in Michigan (6-7 years) are in major trouble because the sponsorship from some Michigan automakers is drying up.

At the same time, many companies are only interested in starting their own team - not sponsoring an existing team for any large financial amount. Bringing a new long-term big-money sponsor on board is very difficult.

Diversifying your sponsorship is key, but it’s very difficult to keep a divese base of sponsors intact - the time requirements are large.

A FIRST robotics budget is simply above the amount of money that most people can fundraise every year. $15,000 (a reasonable budget that would allow you to be competitive) is incredibly difficult to fund-raise.

Probably my biggest gripe is something we’ve run into the last two years. When we started raising our entry fee I’ve heard a number of comments about how “pay to play” sports don’t cost as much as robotics.

Schools think nothing of building a track, a soccer field, a baseball field, and a football field. Bleachers, lights, and then maintaining all that year round. In addition they eat a huge chunk of teams expenses (travel, equipment). Schools are the “Angel” investor in terms of sports. That’s why so-called “pay to play” is still so inexpensive. Selling this sport to the schools and getting their decision-makers (the union leadership and the administration) to buy-in should be a huge focus.

I’ve presented a lot of problems and not many solutions: they are all problems our team has fought with over the last 4 years and continue to fight with.

19

*(http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=973802&postcount=23) I just don’t think it has a lot to do with the topic of sustainability.

If we could get just 10% of current FIRST students to give 4 years of mentoring after college,…

I don’t see how extending the “student competition” model past high school would lead to that happening. Forming teams to solve technical challenges is intended to expose students to the excitement and satisfaction of real-world science and engineering. That’s not necessary for college students who have (mostly) already chosen their path. If we want to increase the availability of mentors, we need to expose them to the excitement and satisfaction of mentoring.

It seems to me that an emphasis instead on more volunteering might be better. College students who haven’t yet gained the experience (and occasionally the social maturity) to be effective mentors will still be able to help regional/district competitions happen smoothly, and in an intermediate position between student and mentor they can get a more appropriate perspective on what good mentoring entails. Rather than giving them a technical problem to solve and the technical resources to help them solve it, give them a people problem and the social resources to help them meet the needs of the organization. Form a “FIRST Volunteer Corps” and make training available. Hold seminars on Tribal Leadership or something.*

20

One thing I have to ask, why the willingness to be the “Angel” investor for sports but, in many cases, not for robotics? What do sports provide that FIRST doesn’t and how do we need to change to provide that.