Tape measure proboscus

FIRST General Forum
1

My team (192) is in sort of a dilemma. As many of you already know, the rule on entanglement of the proboscus/tether has been greatly relaxed allowing teams to use devices that were previously thought to be illegal. One of these devices is the tape measure: it was deemed illegal in one of the rule updates but it is not any more.
At the SV regional, one team (254) created a tape measure proboscus during Thursday of the regional (therefore it is legal) and used it very effectively to get 1st place.
Looking at this, some of the members on our team went ahead and built one before midnight of the Wednesday after the regional. However, half the team is against putting this new proboscus on (we already have another one that goes to both sides of the field, although it not as fast as the tape measure). Their reason is this: the tape measure was illegal and as a result, no one made it during the 6-week build period and if we were to put it on, many teams would hate us because we would be using something that should be illegal. The reputation of 192 as a good, helpful team that follows the rules would be a risk.

The otherside of this argument is that teams would be mad but not at us. They would be mad at FIRST for changing the rules after the shipping date. Our reputation will not change because, afterall, the tape measure is perfectly legal under the new rule change.

The decision to put this device on depends on what others think of this robot. We would like to do well in Florida but we do not want to lose the respect from others by using the tape measure.

What do YOU think?

2

As I’ve said in an earlier post:

"When in doubt between the Yahoo forums and a team update, go for the team update. And, as I said before, if you read team update # 6, on the part that specifically addresses to tethers, you’ll note that it does not prohibit any tether, it only lists devices that could present a risk of entanglement, etc. However, in the end of the text, it is clearly stated that what does present a risk of entanglement is subjective, and the decision is up to the inspector/referees at the regional.

So, as someone pointed earlier, people are blaiming on the teams with tethers for breaking the rules and now getting advantages for it. That’s not true. Teams that took the risk of building extendors are being rewarded for it, be it with the extra points in the end of the match, be it with awards - we won the Judges award at Seattle for Outstanding Machine Design, especially our tape measure. "

So, seems perfeclty legal. And, based on their support, I don’t think the teams that went to Seattle were mad on us for the tape, actually it was the opposite.

3

I don’t have my rule book, so I very well may be wrong but…

Is putting a tape measure on your 'bot for any reason legal? As in, can you find it in the kit, Small Parts or on the additional hardware list? It seems to me that it’s one of those things that wouldn’t fit any 3 of those criteria, making it illegal to have on the 'bot. I know of at least one team at UTC that used an entire tape measure to great effect, so clearly the refs either didn’t notice, didn’t care or ruled it as legal. With all the smog surrounding the teather rules this year, I can’t possibly say what it was.

I’m very interested in this, anyone with a rule book close by that could give an interpritation of this? Or a SPI catalog? Now that I think about it, they may have tape measures in there…

-Andy A.

4

I do think that Small Parts carries tape measures, just keep in mind the width and length of the legal ones. As a little bit of comfort for those without them, at GLR the refs threatned to DQ any teams with tape measures that didn’t match the specifications of those purchased from small parts, this means do not put a Stanley Fat Max 75 tape measure on your robot. I think the ones in small parts are 25’ 3/4" but you need to check. While I am not mad at any team for using changed rulings to their advantage I hope to see more teams get creative on blocking tethers at Nationals for Defense, I know we will be.

5

if we were to put it on, many teams would hate us because we would be using something that should be illegal. The reputation of 192 as a good, helpful team that follows the rules would be a risk. The decision to put this device on depends on what others think of this robot. We would like to do well in Florida but we do not want to lose the respect from others by using the tape measure.

Tito,

I’m not quite sure what dilemma your team is having. It would trouble me if members of your team or any other “hate” another team period, but especially if they think a team should be “hated” or lose respect for adapting their robot to rules & updates. Do some on your team feel that the reputations as “good, helpful teams” such as 254 and other teams with tape measures, mini bots, tethers, etc…should be at risk or that other teams should not respect them? I certainly hope not.

192 is a great team, one of the best in the country - if you are able to make a tape measure work - great. If it is an improvement over what you currently use, then great - add it. That’s good engineering. Your engineer contacted team 254 after the SV regional to get advice/help in adding a tape measure. The tape measure devices are more difficult to create (reliably) then people think, and 254 was happy to share everything they learned and the details of their design with your engineer - hopefully it was helpful.

Also, MOST extensions being used now were considered unusable during the 6 week build time. Tethers, cables, mini bots, tape measures, elastic, tent poles - ALL were considered “risks of entanglement” and many teams felt they would not be allowed. Tape measures are completely legal within the rules, as they are available in the Small Parts Catalog. Once tape measures and other extensions previously thought of as not usuable were allowed in the first week of regionals - MANY teams adapted and added things to their robots, and did so completely within the rules.

If 192 or any other team is able to improve their robot within the rules, you should be proud of it and do it. 192 has a great and well deserved reputation which would NEVER be hurt by better engineering their robot or doing things within the rules. Good luck in Orlando.

6

To clear up a couple questions…

Small Parts DOES in fact carry tape measures, so on those grounds, they are legal.

Our team (192) had several issues that we discussed as to whether or not we wanted a tape measure, and while our respect was definitely one of them, another one was the reaction of our extension group. We had 5 or 6 guys working for about five and a half weeks trying to make SURE we had a “tether” which would not and could not entangle other robots (we did extensive testing with our robot from last year), and the tape measure idea DID come up, and was designed and built within the first week. However, we vetoed the idea when it was disallowed as of the yahoo group. It’s been kind of a touchy point, ever since we saw teams using methods which we had assumed were illegal.

7

I think the dilemma comes not from whether the tape measure is illegal or not, but whether teams would not like it.

FIRST has really thrown a monkey wrench into this year’s game by loosening the rules for tethers. Whether or not this is right is a topic that has already been discussed to much, and continuing the discussion won’t do much good. The fact is that under the current set of rules, a tape measure tether is legal.

I guess I fall into your second category. I really wish that FIRST handled this better, but I have no problem with you implementing a tether under the current rules.

9

Tito,

Speaking on behalf of 118, there would be no ill feelings toward 192 or FIRST regardless of your decision. Concerning FIRST, people seem to have a problem with FIRST when the rules are changed that don’t favor them BUT when FIRST changes a rule that benefits a team, the applause is non-existent. Similar to the “real-world”, I suggest taking the ethical high ground and taking advantage of all rule changes.

This brings me to your bigger dilemma. The rule change for post-regional construction is preempted by

From Page 2 of Team Update 6
In order to better allow teams to replace robot components that fail or do not work well at
competition events, FIRST has decided to alter it’s policy regarding fabrication of parts when the
robot is out of team hands.

I interpret this rule to mean that the post-regional construction time is for repairs and improvements to preexisting components. Although I have heard too many times to count things similar to ‘Wait until Nationals, we’ll have a __________ (you fill in the “new” feature)’, in my humble opinion, you have to construct your tape measure extension in the pits on Thursday morning at Nationals and not use the one that was constructed under the post-regional construction rule. With this said, I may be totally wrong because your new tape measure may just be an improvement of your present mechanism (this is something for you to decide). Please, please, don’t take this as a knock against 192 … I am simply giving my interpretation of the rule. AND please, please, please, don’t start flaming me if you are a team that has added that new feature you saw at a regional and are feeling a little bit guilty now. Not that this will be comforting but our team also struggled with what a “new” feature was versus what “improving” a feature was … we decided not to walk the line and make any and all improvements on Thursday although it would have been MUCH easier to do it before Wednesday night.

Good luck with your dilemma(s) & take care,
Lucien

10

While at the Canadian regional our team selected a robot with a tape measure as our alliance partner. As a coach I didn’t have much time to watch matches, or participate in scouting. When we were in the queue waiting for our match, I was talking with our ally about their tape-measure-tether design. It was the first one I had saw and I was quite impressed with it’s simplicity and effectiveness.

What I wondered was how they came up with the idea. I wanted to know what type of brainstorming they did or how that idea came about. When I asked I was pretty disappointed to find out that they had seen it on another robot at another regional, and more or less copied the design.

While it is legal (this year at least) and I don’t see anything wrong with a team choosing to add the feature (it obviously is quite effective), I am disturbed a bit with the whole concept of copying an idea during the season. Once a team starts competing, I think teams should not be allowed to change their designs. That’s what the six weeks is for, in my opinion. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to let teams take the idea of one team (i don’t know who did it originally, but i give you my congratulations on a great idea) and add it to their robot for the next regional competition. It’s okay to look at an aspect of another robot design and say, “what a great idea. next year we should think along these lines…”. I don’t think it’s okay to say, “look at that feature. let’s add that before our next regional.” It’s just not fair to the team that came up with it originally, and it’s teaching the students on the team that you win by copying other designs. We have some unique design features on our robot, and I think our team takes great pride that we came up with these ideas by our own brainstorming and design process. If we were to add two tape measures, well, that would seem cheap to me. Sure we might do better if we do, but then can we really call the robot our own?

Patrick

11

Was it just a motor powering a roller that simply pulled the tape out? Cause we had the idea at the beginnning of the 6 weeks, then all the entanglement risks came out and we scraped it, then on the last day before shipping we made it just in case and we went to LI and Erick (THE FIRST RULE GUY), me, and 2 of our adult leaders had a long talk about its legality, and they said “We told 800 teams (or whatever #) that tape measures are illlegal, so sorry you can’t use it.” Then before we went to UTC FRC posted in here about it so we said “HOORAY!! NOW WE JUST HAVE TO FIND 2 POUNDS!!” so thursday we stayed until pits closed to take off weight, and we were soo happy when we did, “And there was much rejoicing” but it was definetly interesting to adapt the robot after the 6 weeks, instead of just doing repairs

as has been said many times “[Duplication] is the highest form of flattery”

12

*Originally posted by Natchez *
**
…

[quote]quote:

From Page 2 of Team Update 6
In order to better allow teams to replace robot components that fail or do not work well at
competition events, FIRST has decided to alter it’s policy regarding fabrication of parts when the
robot is out of team hands.

I interpret this rule to mean that the post-regional construction time is for repairs and improvements to preexisting components. Although I have heard too many times to count things similar to ‘Wait until Nationals, we’ll have a __________ (you fill in the “new” feature)’, in my humble opinion, you have to construct your tape measure extension in the pits on Thursday morning at Nationals and not use the one that was constructed under the post-regional construction rule. With this said, I may be totally wrong because your new tape measure may just be an improvement of your present mechanism (this is something for you to decide). Please, please, don’t take this as a knock against 192 … I am simply giving my interpretation of the rule. AND please, please, please, don’t start flaming me if you are a team that has added that new feature you saw at a regional and are feeling a little bit guilty now.
…
Good luck with your dilemma(s) & take care,
Lucien [/quote]

**

I share this interpretation of the intent of ruling. Nothing else to add myself.

Wetzel

Alexander Hamilton
13

FIRST changes its rules every year at regionals.

Last year, teams were not allowed to use any belting material that was not considered “timing belt.” In 2000 we had used roughtop belting on our wheels (spectacular traction by the way), but it was to be considered illegal in 2001. We came to the first regional with sandpaper glued to our wheels, tore up the wood on the field, and had to find something new. We saw some other teams that had used roughtop belting laminated to timing belt, so for the second regional we managed to scour up some laminated belting and strapped it to our wheels. When we got to the second regional, we saw that teams had put the roughtop belting directly on to their wheels, without the timing belt. The moral of the story is that when FIRST makes a sketchy rule that angers a lot of teams, you can almost expect them to relax that rule in competition.

This year we had a perfectly good tether coming in to the first regional and then saw that tape measures were legal. The tape measure seems like possibly the best solution for a teathering mechanism, so after the regional we whipped one up. Could we have used our old tether? Sure. Was the tape measure better? Yes. In my opinion, you go with what works.

FIRST has given everyone an opportunity to score an extra 10 points quite easily, using a mechanism that potentially weighs under 2 pounds. FIRST may not just be about winning, but nobody builds a robot to lose. I figure if they give you a possible advantage, take it. We just go with the flow. . .

Jeff Alpert
Mentor
Team 469

14

During the building period, we also tried building an extension out of tent poles, tape measures, and other methods, but eventually scrapped it because we did not want to risk entanglement and we did not have enough weight. On Thursday and Friday at the Cleveland regional, we hacksawed off our ball mechanism, and the extra weight allowed us to use an extension. We built the extension during the qualifying matches on Friday using a tape measure.

We did not “blatantly disregard FIRST’s rulings on extensions” (ie. the yahoo group message that said no to tape measures) as some people have said in other posts. In fact, we wanted to build the tape measue extension before that message was posted, but scrapped it when we saw it. It was only after we realized that FIRST was allowing them did we actually build it. Some people have said that the teams with extensions have an unfair advantage because they did not follow the rules and were rewarded for it, when in fact we did follow the rules.

Please do not ‘hate’ our team or any other team for having an extension that you feel is or was illegal. If anything, talk to the judges about the ruling if you do not feel it is correct. It is not our team’s fault that FIRST reversed their ruling.

To team 192: If you have a tape measure extension, feel perfectly free to use it. It is legal under the rules, and if any team feels negatively about you for using it, their anger is misguided. You have done nothing wrong.

My comments on FIRST’s ruling for repairing and improving components after a regional: I believe that this rule is entirely too vague. For example, team 192 is technically improving their extension by bulding an entire new one that is faster and lighter than their current one. In our case, we built our extension at the regional, and then improved it when we came home.

In addition, any robot can really be split into 4 or less extremely general components: the latch mechanism, the ball mechanism, the extension, and the drive train. If a team has all 4 of those components, but none of them work, could they technichally completely redesign each of these and qualify them as “improvements”? I’m not sure. I think FIRST should either allow teams to do anything to the robot after competitions, or only allow teams to repair the robot.

BTW, if any team wants to build a tape measure extension, we would be more than happy to show you ours on Thursday at nationals. The extension is fast (25’ in 4-5 seconds), reliable, weighs about 2.5 lbs, and can probably be built in about 2 hours. You could have it done before the qualifying matches begin on Friday.

15

I know that a team, the number escapes me, had to take of their tether because it was just a simple tape measure. they had also bought theirs from home depot not small parts and they toldthat to the judges. I know there have been alot of rule changes since VCU, but i dont think its worth the risk.

16

Team 64’s original idea was to make a tether out of a tape measure. But a few days in we were told that we couldn’t do it. Then we started brainstorming other ideas, but we didn’t know if tethers would be allowed at all, so we sat back and watched until the regionals started. People at the regionals said that pretty much everything was legal. Then we went to Seattle and watched Brazil (383) school everyone with thier tape measures. So on the second day in LA we built a tape measure. As for GRT and other teams scared that people will hate them, i say, you’d better use it if you plan on beating the teams that have them. Adapting to rule changes isn’t cheating, its being flexible.

17

Go for it 192!

You guys have an awesome bot… we loved watching you in Cali and look forward to playing with you folks on Einstein!

T190 had similar thoughts… we say the cool extensions of 254 at SV and thought “Tape measures are illegal for extensions, aren’t they?”… and our driver even got himself all caught up in one of them in practice… But 254 passed inspection and flew on threw to the top with two tape measures…

It’s legal now. People have played with them on… make the change. Lots of people are ‘urked’ by this late in the game change by FIRST… but you made your tether within the legal build period, and after the made this definite changes… fear not!

In any case, any anger shouldn’t be directed towards 192, but should be brought up at the Team Forum this summer to FIRST about making these statements about illegal devices and then ‘changes’ when a bunch of regionals have already occured. If anyone complains, show them the update, be confident knowing you did it in all legalty, share your concerns, sympathize with theirs, but make the suggestion that they bring it to the plate at the team forum and wish them the best of luck in their next match.

T190 will be doing a little more endzone stretching ourselves. Let’s hope to see a match where 190 & 192 take on, it looks to be a good one!

Only a few more days… :slight_smile:

18

In response to all discussions regarding tape measures, please be sure to check on the FIRST website for the newest update which discusses it. First will allow the tape measure PROVIDED it is the same brand, length and width as the one from THE CURRENT Small Parts Catalogue and they will be checking.

19

Tape measures were deemed illegal on the Yahoo site. However, this was not noticed by the individuals running the Virginia Regional and they allowed them.

Therefore the Ohio regional felt that they had to follow the precedent that was set.

At this point FIRST began to allow them.

At the West Michigan Regional, they were allowed if they met the other criteria in the rules, namely that they came from Small Parts or if Small Parts was out of stock, an exact duplicate. I.E. 3/4" no individual piece longer than 25’.

Update #8 from FIRST said that they would accept 3/4" or 1". I have the Small Parts Catalogs for 2000, 2001 and I printed out all of the tape measures from this years catalog off of the web and I cannot find a 1" in any of those catalogs. If anyone knows the catalog and page number, I would sure like to see it.

In any event, this is a very touchy subject with all of the teams, the ones that honored the rules, the ones that didn’t see the ruling and those that are adding them to have equal footing at Epcot.

Please do not give FIRST any more grief than neccesary on this subject. What is done is done and we have to ride this one out through the Nationals and hope for better clarification and enforcement of the rules next year.

The team that I support chose not to use an AT&T (reach out and touch someone) device because of the rules and they are now trying to figure out how to retrofit one at Epcot to increase their attractiveness as an ally.

20

Since everyone can put a tape measure or even 2 on their bot with little effort, and all are virtually identical.

There is only one way to make it legal, fair and entertaining to watch… BAN ALL PURCHASED TAPE MEASURES

21

Go ahead and put your tape meassure on…

It’s totally legal to use it after Team update 8 came out now and so on…

Some teams used it during regionals anyways…

And yes, I am mad at FIRST for allowing it: We spent more than 50 amnhours building a “rigid” (that’s what everybody wanted at FIRST) device, that is 18 ft. long ond wieghs more than 14 pounds. Now FIRST comes along and penalizes all teams that listened carefully to what they said earlier and DID NOT put a tape meassure on. I think in this case it really should have been dissallowed. All teams that didn’t care what FIRST said and put it on are free to do everything with it now. It’s not the right way to go, FIRST has to stick to their decissions alone to save their own authority… Why should we listen to the cr*p they tell us if they tell us later, you’re fine, use it?!?