I am going to be very upset if i see teams putting tape measures on there robot now that they say they are legal. This is a very cheap way to try and win it now. If you had it on your robot before fine, but i think it is totaly out of the spirt of first to add this to your robot now when you had no attention of putting one on your robot to begin with. Our team could easily take off our mini me robot add a tape measure and add other devices that would help us out win.
i see why you feel this way, but it is perfectly legal. small parts sells tape measures, and you assemble and mount the whole mechanism at the competiton…it’s not like they’re prebuilding an arm or mouse, ya know?
If I understand some of the rule changes this year, FIRST made it legal to add ANYTHING to your robot during the competitions this year because they disallowed teams from taking their robot home with them after a regional, and reshipping it to their next one. Also, some teams had plans all along to add a tape measure, but then either did not follow through or took it off because of that one team update. If anything, they are the ones that will most likely put them on, because they had the plans for them all along.
Oh, and why would you be upset? Be happy that teams are learning from others… isn’t that what FIRST is all about? =)
Tape measures may be legal, but should be frowned apon by teams. Many of us worked hard to find a way to work in the rules in the 6 weeks. if your bot dosent fit the bill then y copy off others. First is Inspiration and recognition of Technology. What is technological about taping a tape measure to a finely milled machine.
My opinion is that if u didn;t build it then u shouldn;t be allowed to use it, and no one can say they built a tape measure (save the teams that built a tape measure like thing themselves.
If we take the easy way out now then what does it tell the rookies, and what will this lead to in the future, The game is about making new strides not relying on something someone esle made. Small parts may sell it but it is by no means a “building item” Shame on all those who exploit this small oversite in that small parts can;t make a special FIRST catalog for teams with some items removed.
*Originally posted by sidewinder *
**My opinion is that if u didn;t build it then u shouldn;t be allowed to use it, and no one can say they built a tape measure (save the teams that built a tape measure like thing themselves.
**
Should we ban buying of skyway wheels - after all if they didnt make them why should teams be able to use them? no. Its called being creative - teams have to come up with a way to control the tape measure - that takes some design work. No team can just buy the tape measure, stick it on and have it work - there is definitely more to it than just that.
Tom
very well put that is what i was trying to say but i like your answer better 
my last comment was for sidewinder
go ahead and ban skyway wheels, its not being creative to copy EVERYONE ELSE
*Originally posted by Tom Schindler *
**Should we ban buying of skyway wheels - after all if they didnt make them why should teams be able to use them? no. Its called being creative - teams have to come up with a way to control the tape measure - that takes some design work. No team can just buy the tape measure, stick it on and have it work - there is definitely more to it than just that.
Tom **
Tom read my mind. When teams realized that pnuematic wheels worked great for this years comp, many of them modified thier drive train. I don’t call this cheating/illegal/“not in the spirit of FIRST”… I call this smart gameplay. If you build a gearbox that dies in every match and then redesign it (maybe using ideas seen from other teams) to not die, that’s smart. They shouldn’t be DQ’d or looked down upon because they modified thier original design.
When FIRST made the initial rulings on tape measures, many teams (including mine) were scared away from the idea. Those who kept with tape measures either didn’t read the rules, or didn’t care enough to be cautious. Now that the rules have been stated clearly, I think anyone who wants to design a tether using a legal tape measure realizes it may be smart gameplay for them.
Like Tom said, you can’t just add a tape measure to your robot and tell it to extend. You still have to engineer/program/control the thing.
Please don’t “blacklist” teams that make creative, strategic modifications to their robots… thats not the spirit of FIRST.
…just my 2 cents…
Steve
Fixing a faulty drive, yes. that requires thought, time, work, and substancial effort, and substancial creativity (even if u do copy a bit).
Copying a design exactly … creative?
And all teams use tape measures the same way and it is incredibly easy to use with very little code, so don;t fight for it being an “innovation.” Ya tape the tape measure to the bot and throw on a keyang with a ruber wheel to push it, and program a joystick button to give it power when u want. Uses, one relay, one joystick (already in use) 4 bolts (maybee) one tape measure, one keyang, one line of code, one rubber wheel.
And for the wheels, I do support their use becasue we are given wheels to begin with and they are hard to machine for rookie teams especially, but if u have the tools theres nothing like a c&ced wheel with timing belt on it.
This whole issue of Tape measures, mini-segs, etc has been an unfortunate one. I know that our team considered adding a mini-robot during our original design, but abandoned it because it appeared that almost any design that we could have come up with would be potentially illegal so rather than ‘push’ the rules we just abandoned the idea. After the FIRST ruling that almost any mini-robot was legal we considered adding a Tape measure for our competition at St. Louis but again decided not to, one reason was that we really didn’t have time to design and test a new component at St. Louis and also our robot somehow managed to gain a pound between KSC and St. Louis which put us at the 130 lb. limit (I hope that it doesn’t gain another lb between St. Louis and Disney !). We may consider adding one at Disney (if we can lose a pound) but I doubt it, it is just too late in the game for us to start changing strategy.
Don Taylor
M-n-M Team 343
Our team found that the typical keyang and rubber wheel configuration was too heavy (~ 3.5# with the added relay) for consideration after the first regionals in March.
Since then one of our students designed a new reel that can be used with a Fisher Price Motor. This motor is fixed to the tape measure housing itself and weighs about 1/2 of the “typical” tape measure devive mentioned earlier.
Is the concept new, no, but the product IS. Even with this reduction we have had to engineer weight reducing changes to our machine. It was no small or simple task. So I wouldn’t say that I would expect to see a lot of tape measures popping up all over the place, at least not on your heavier/at or near weight machines. Sure there are bound to be a few that get “slapped on”, but also remember that they are legal, and if a team can manage to engineer them, and install them then good for them.
using the fisher price gearbox too, or just the motor?
Just the motor, and the gear that is attached. The gear is epoxied and set-screwed into the new plastc (nylon) reel. The tape from the tape measure is them attached to the the reel. Then assembly is quickly mounted where ever it seems to best fit the strategy for that round with tie wraps.
In respect to the one comment about copying designs exactly: what about tank drive? That one seems a bit USED… Hehe, just kidding. If you want to go on forever about little instances of copy cat, you could go on for hours complaining. The important thing that almost everyone in this conversation is forgetting:
F.I.R.S.T. is FOR INSPIRATION AND RECOGNITION OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.
There message? To inspire young minds to pursue engineering and science, and change the social caste that winning is all about beating the snot out of your opponents.
How specifically do I relate the above to this topic? If a team adds a tape measure to their robot, yes they are helping themselves, but they are also helping every team they play against or with, because the point total goes up. More important than the competition, they learned from their ‘competitors’ and quickly made adjustments to their product to be able to hold their own against them. Sort of sounds like a real world company doesn’t it? Just a little? =)
Question to nuggets, did your team originally have a tape measurer on your bot? I have been with first for 3 years and it seems to me that if anyone doesn’t like something another team is doing, they pull the “spirit of first” card. Our team, like so many others, was pushed away from the idea of teathers due to FIRST’s rule of entanglement. Now that all teathers are allowed, we plan on adding one at nationals. I would say if there is one thing that isnt in the spirit of FIRST, it would be barging your way through rules until you get your way. We would be perfectly fine without a teather if all the other teams didn’t have a teather. Personally, I think anyone who included a teather despite FIRST’s rule brought the copycats onto themselves. Just my $.02
NO we do not use a tape measure. Justifying something is right because everyone else is doing it is not the way to go. Every year i push my team to think out of the box and come up with new ideas for the robot to show people new and cool ways at looking at the game. I am not a judge i am not going to stop anyone from putting one on. And with this sprit of first thing you are talking about that is not for me to judge. Every one has to judge that for themselves. If you feel it is in the spirt of first to add some on to your robot go ahead, but make sure you are doing it to learn from it.
*Originally posted by Steve Prairie *
**When FIRST made the initial rulings on tape measures, many teams (including mine) were scared away from the idea. Those who kept with tape measures either didn’t read the rules, or didn’t care enough to be cautious. Now that the rules have been stated clearly, I think anyone who wants to design a tether using a legal tape measure realizes it may be smart gameplay for them.
**
Well, yeah:
I know exactly what you mean. We also were scared away form that idea. And it’s fine to add now a tape meassure in my opinion. What I DON’T understand is FIRST saying that they are allowed. All teams who listened carefully to what they originally said are being penalized now. That’s saomething that I WON’T EVER understand…
We spent over 60 manhours on our 18 feet extension device that is really rigid and weighs 14 pounds.
Now a ref in NJ told us that none of the judges liked our extension because it was so rigid. SO wHAT is all i can say there. We wanted to be nice and build it as much as the official rules state and then they don’t like it? they like something like a tape meassure or a long piece of plastic that unfolds (team88) more???
I JUST DON’T GET IT!
And abot that other post:
Yes, everybody can just take a tape meassure now, put it on and it will work. It is really not difficult at all to power a tape meassure to go out and back in…
And I also think it’s fine if teams do take a tape meassure and put it on now, since the rules state that it is leagal to repair and imporve the robots at the competition site…
*Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie *
**Personally, I think anyone who included a teather despite FIRST’s rule brought the copycats onto themselves. Just my $.02 **
Hey, they said make it rigid and be aware that everything that happens with it is YOUR fault. We did. Nothing wrong with that…
Let me just clear up a few misunderstandings that I’ve noticed throught this thread. To me, the controversy is over the ‘opinion’ that tape measures should be looked down upon because they are too easy to install and copy.
I watched our team (254) build our tape measure extensions the Thursday and Friday at Cleveland. We hadn’t before because of the rulings, but once we found out they weren’t going to order them off, we went to work. They worked the one time we tried them.
If you saw the extension there, I would agree that it looks like it’s just ‘put it together and go’. But there’s a lot more to the extension, at least for our team. You can’t just put a tape measure, a motor, and some bolts and expect an easy 10 points.
In San Jose, you could have seen the work behind the extensions even more. We had two or three guys dedicated to checking the extensions after every match, because we had REMOVED THE SPRING COILS from our tape measure to get it to extend easily, REVERSED THE DIRECTION of the tape measure as to have the edges point down and reduce entanglement risk, and we were liable to REPLACE tape measures that we deemed used enough. We went through somewhere between two and four tape measures that regional, all of them being the ones in Small Parts, and we’re ready to do that again.
But even more importantly, we’re willing to help anyone else who wants to implement such a device. That’s really what FIRST is about: you discover something that works, and you teach others what you find, spread the knowledge. It’s not copycatting, it’s teaching.
BTW, we did work on extensions before the tape measure, we had tried a scissor lift extension and theorized an aluminum plate-tounge, but scrapped both because they weren’t looking too good as in performance and that we had a weight problem.
To everyone, in conclusion, the game changes, so change to the game. It’s FIRST.
[end two cents]