Team 2412 Presents Project: Overtime

[rtomp]

Anyone who has an issue with this is just mad they didn’t come up with it themselves. You got beat, deal with it

[aka]

Yes, but robot inspection occurs outside of a MATCH, and can prevent a robot from getting on the field in the first place.
Not to mention, H101 and H201 are penalties that are assessed outside of a match. The specific wording was about Robot actions, not the actions of the driver or members of the team.

@cj3958

G208 alone should make everyone think twice about this “Penalties are not assigned for ROBOT actions outside a MATCH.” Obviously robot bowling shouldn’t become a thing at champs, and neither should this.

H101 and H201 already provide ample relief from people abusing it. It really is not that big of a deal. Not to mention getting it past inspection.

[Programming4907]

@cj3958

Obviously robot bowling shouldn’t become a thing at champs

Every year the team shoots down my spherical robot idea. Thanks for ruining it again for me!

[cj3958]

@aka

H101 and H201 already provide ample relief from people abusing it. It really is not that big of a deal. Not to mention getting it past inspection.

I don’t see how H101 and H201 have any implications on my robot’s behavior

H101 - *Be a good person.- Says nothing about being civil to other robots, its human/human interaction

H201 - *Egregious or exceptional violations - talks exclusively about how humans should behave when interacting with the field/walkin on off. Not relevant.

[aka]

The blue box for H201 specifically mentions robot action. (Pinning for 15 seconds)

(I’m reaching with H101 as I believe intentionally trying to damage robots by circumventing the rules in this way is not being a “good” person. And if robots are no longer responsible for their actions after t=0 then that means the humans driving/responsible for making it are now liable. )

@cj3958

H201 - *Egregious or exceptional violations - talks exclusively about how humans should behave when interacting with the field/walkin on off. Not relevant.

H201. *Egregious or exceptional violations. Egregious behavior beyond what is listed in the rules or
subsequent violations of any rule or procedure during the event is prohibited.
In addition to rule violations explicitly listed in this manual and witnessed by a REFEREE, the Head
REFEREE may assign a YELLOW or RED CARD for egregious ROBOT actions or team member
behavior at any time during the event.

This doesn’t even apply to only rule violations, it can also apply to robot actions the Head Ref believes is exceptionally egregious.

[Nick.kremer]

Who needs HBO when you can just read this thread for your daily dose of drama.

[Richard_Wallace]

Did they just pick up a bunch of tech fouls in Q37 when the mechanism in question deployed way early? If so it highlights a significant risk – turned what could have been a 4RP win into a 2RP loss.

[Domtech]

It failed because we weren’t planning to use it so the students just taped it down and the tape broke. A big mistake that we will try to avoid in the future.

Edit: I think a few of the fouls were from our intake contacting other robots while defending since we did lose pneumatics as well.

[Tom_Line]

Correct. 469 did get penalized when they made the mistake of moving their flipper while it was in contact with the ball (active control), but passively providing a surface to roll down was legal, and many other teams did it. (Enginerds, Wings of Fire, etc).

[asid61]

Aha, you’re absolutely right. I wasn’t able to find that thread last time I looked. Very cool!

[aka]

Are you going to try and use it at the event?
I would love to see this used in a match.

[Jared_Russell]

Part of the reason there hasn’t been earlier outrage (aside from the fact that not everyone lives on this forum) is that until a robot takes the field, utilizes a loophole, and receives a concrete ruling from a head referee, it’s uncertain whether the loophole actually exists. I would have bet that a Team Update, Q&A response, or Head Ref ruling would have closed this off before now, but here we are.

@Kevin_Leonard

I think it’s a weird loophole, but ultimately harmless, and an interesting engineering challenge for the team that undertook building it!

1. I just can’t see how it’s harmless to declare a moratorium on (for example) G201-G208 as soon as the buzzer sounds. A situation where H201 is the only deterrent and needs to be wheeled out to decide which post-buzzer behavior are “egregious or exceptional” sounds like a nightmare for consistency in officiating.

2. Don’t write off this climb concept just because 2412’s implementation isn’t yet working reliably.

[asid61]

Honestly, I think this could be the coolest thing to happen to this season. I’m ready for top teams to pull out Mad Max robots in the 5-second gap after matches end. Will make for a very zany championship.

Knocking robots off the bar after the buzzer is pretty much as clear of an H20x violation as you can get. Destroying other robots still happens, and it only gets penalized by a red card at the moment anyway (if it’s even carded…)

[Joe_Johnson]

I am solidly in Camp Jared_Russell but it doesn’t matter. Past is past. The rules allow it. What’s that phrase… If you can’t beat 'em join 'em… Hope to see you in Houston.

[Kevin_Leonard]

@Jared_Russell

1. I just can’t see how it’s harmless to declare a moratorium on (for example) G201-G208 as soon as the buzzer sounds. A situation where H201 is the only deterrent and needs to be wheeled out to decide which post-buzzer behavior are “egregious or exceptional” sounds like a nightmare for consistency in officiating.
2. Don’t write off this climb concept just because 2412’s implementation isn’t yet working reliably.

I think you’re right. In my head I’m relying on what feels like a common sense interpretation that somehow some of those rules would apply post-match and some wouldn’t, or that other rules in the manual (H20X rules) would obviously apply to actions that seem malicious in intent.

But the rules don’t say that.

I do feel like this team that built this really cool thing and wants to show it off on Chief Delphi might feel a little attacked for actually trying a thing that someone else came up with and nobody really seemed to have an issue with back then.

2412, TSIMFD. But the rules and Q&A responses should be updated.

[aka]

@Jared_Russell

I just can’t see how it’s harmless to declare a moratorium on (for example) G201-G208 as soon as the buzzer sounds.

But penalties have always stoppped accruing after the match ends. It has always been like that. Whether that’s accidentally pinning the scale after getting stuck on it in 2018, or pinning a cargo to the carpet and constantly getting penalties after you have tipped over in this years game. This isn’t anything new to an FRC game.

[asid61]

Except that it was only implied in previous games, not explicit. Which is a pretty big difference. Otherwise I’m sure we would have seen anti-climb mechanisms in 2018 otherwise, or even 2019 (by touching L3 robots to make their climb worth 3pts).

[aka]

2018 had a climb counted at t=0 so that doesn’t really work. It’s possible you could have done it for 2019, but I don’t think anyone had thought about it then.

[Lexeo]

Is that possible for this season too with these new rule ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶s̶ clarifications? That seems possible and very concerning for robots that are hanging.

[Karthik]

My game design philosophy has always been that the rules are contract between the rule makers and the teams. Once they’re released, they should be considered “signed” and both sides should have to adhere to them. For the teams it means following the rules, and for the rule makers it means not changing them. The only exceptions are if the rule creates a safety hazard, or if the rule absolutely and completely breaks the game. In this case, I think it’s worth looking at things to make sure there aren’t safety hazards presented by this Q&A, but other than that I think the rule should stick for this season, and be seriously reviewed and patched for future seasons.