Hey everyone. Well, as we all know it is well into the build season with the deadline fast approaching and since I am on a rookie team we hardly have the grasp of the gravity of our situation. What makes it much worse is a big argument we have been having and can’t put behind us.
Here’s the issue, when we were starting brainstorming ideas for this year’s robot we had a couple ideas that people felt passionately. They were “Wheel”, “Auger” and “Dual Conveyor”. As a team we decided to pick “Wheel”. The problem is, our lead mentor was the one who created the auger idea. Now, when we decided against it her figured that we just didn’t understand it. So he decides to take his son and ONE other student and develop it as a “backup”.
We thought that was alright as long as this was outside of the time we worked as a team and that it would ONLY be used if our first choice didn’t work. Well, he calls a meeting today declaring that once we are done with the build season we are going to have a performance test the two and pick the one that works best, which is totally hypocritical to what he said in the beginning of the meeting which is that FIRST isn’t about winning or losing.
I raised my hand and voiced my opinion that if we decide to pick the Auger that everyone who didn’t work on the team would feel totally alienated because they had no help in making it. I said that I would rather lose miserbly with the bot I made, then win it all with a bot I had no help on.
I didn’t make this just to air out dirty laundry and for you guys to back me up. I want to know how you guys handle back up ideas, do you just pick an idea and go with it or do you make two robots and pick the best one. Another big issue with this is that they have split our total funds between these two robots. What do you guys think?
Every team I’ve been apart of has been all or nothing. No middle. You pick a design, then you build it. Sure, you may draft a couple of ideas, you may prototype an idea or two, but you only build one. Otherwise, your wasting both time and money. Some teams may have the luxury of building two ideas, but I’ve never been on one that could. Good luck on sorting it out.
That’s my feeling. He has it in his head that we have enough time to do both and we barely have enough time to do one. He’s telling me to start working on “Auger Code” and I said “No, I’m not sabotaging our team”
Personally I feel that this problems should have been dealt with almost four weeks ago. When your team brainstorms ideas, it’s great for everyone to defend their ideas while they develop them, however, when you start to make decisions on what will actually happen on your robot, you need to get everyone to realize that it no longer is their own idea, but the teams idea and it may be turned down. For my team, we brainstorm in subgroups, then we get together and present the individual ideas to the entire team, then we make everyone do a physical motion to signify that they no longer own that idea, but more so it’s a team idea from that point forward. If, however, there is an idea that we want to keep just in case, we put it on the Put-A-Side list. The Put-A-Side list is a list that stays on the main white board where all dormant ideas stay. While on the list, it doesn’t mean we will do the idea, or that we won’t do it, it just means that we are focusing on other ideas before looking into the ideas on the list. Let us know how this situation turns out, sorry you had to deal with this on your first year.
Oh, I love mentors for what they do, but they can certainly be overbearing. This late in build season, I would suggest doing whichever design will be finished the soonest. It is a tough decision, between what you made yourself and what may be better for the team. Do whatever you think is right, try to get a many students supporting it as possible.
We pick one idea to stick with for good about two weeks into the build season, although I do admit this year for us is a bit of an exception, but it was acceptable because the two designs are quite similar and come from the same idea that was agreed on.
I don’t know about other teams, but our team votes as a team for what we want, our mentors can voice their opinions, but our students are the ones that decide, then we focus all of our resources on the idea that is chosen. This is mostly because our team is student-run for the most part. If you want the students to play a major role in building the robot, then the students should be the ones deciding, and in my opinion, the mentor should respect the decision made by students.
I can tell you that your situation is by no means uncommon. I’ve been around since 2005 and almost every year our team has had some sort of conflict over design but it almost always is before we make our decision.
It’s important to make sure that once you settle on a design as a TEAM you stick with it. I personally do not support your team leader working on a separate design as a back up. His time could be better spent making spares for the team approved design. If you were in the prototype phase then sure, if he wants to prototype a different design then fine, but once it’s time to work on the final design, you can’t have people second guessing that.
I feel the same way that you do when it comes to “you’d rather lose with a bot you made then win with someone else’s.” In 2006, we didn’t build an elite robot, but it was a solid team effort and I’m proud of it.
Don’t forget that your team leader is a rookie too. It’s going to take some time for him to learn how to be most affective in that capacity. He will learn a lot from the past Woodie Flowers Award winners at FLR if he takes the time to talk to them.
The best thing you can do is get a sense of how the majority of the team feels and go in that direction. I know it may create some tension between the groups but in the end you are all on the same team and it’s too late in the season to still be battling over designs. You guys need to get united together cause if your team leader is really concerned about winning, then a united team behind a common effort is the only way that’s going to happen.
I can’t wait to play Lunacy with you guys at FLR and I know that you and your team can overcome this and have a successful season. Good luck and see ya at FLR!
For the FTC, we had about 5 ideas swirling around, and mine was picked. Not by the team, mind you, but the logistics coach. On his own. In one day. Once I saw the new kit of parts, I didn’t like my idea. We still went with it. With only two weeks left, we (myself and two or three others) realized that it wasn’t working. We made this decision at lunch, and had a working phase 1 prototype by 4 in the afternoon. While the robot didn’t do too hot in competition, Jake is still the robot I’m the most proud of.
I AM NOT SAYING to wait till the last minute and change everything, but I am saying stick to your design, the coaches aren’t always right, so build it and prove them wrong.
up until the past few years it was here’s our idea and thats what we’re going for, there was no room for changing.
Now we have kinda gone to a more modular design where things can be switched at will, the point of that isnt for switching main design ideas though but rahter for if something fails DURING cmopetition. Personally I think its a team by team decision though, if you feel strongly with your view then portray that and why to your team and when it comes time to vote if you make your point strong enough hopefully the team will agree with you.
Ha! Thanks, were probably gonna get crushed by I am very excited!
The biggest thing here is the fact that 4 people are working on the auger. Two students and two mentors…that’s it. The other 15ish people are working on the wheel. There is a clear cut majority, and most everyone supports me. Our student team leader is vehemently against this idea as well.
Another point he made was that you have to compare this to industry. He said that when are working you have to pick what is best and not just which one you like. I told him that, that analogy is not valid because we don’t get fired for not winning at FIRST and as he said it’s not about winning, about making a group effort to get the job done and to work together to create a robot that we all agreed on.
I agree with what has been said, I prefer to choose one design and make that design work, improving it along the way. Unfortunately your team seems to be beyond that point.
I suggest you bring this point up as a team group and let everyone give their opinion on the subject. At some point you will need to choose one design, and one robot. I think the sooner, the better…
Everyone likes to fall in love with their designs sometimes, but in the end this is a team effort and the team needs to collectively make a decision. If the team members decide to choose based on effectiveness or based on whether they had a hand in making the machine, it is their personal vote. Eventually a decision needs to be made, you can’t compete with 2 robots. I personally would prefer a group decision over a single person’s decision (even if they’re a mentor) and I would prefer a decision today rather than ship day. It’s not one person’s robot, so as a team you need to decide on a single machine to compete with.
There are thousands of potential designs that work will work. If you spread you resources out and build 2 designs with half as much effort as you would have if your resources were combined, you’ll always have 2 mediocre robots. Hopefully you guys will come together and have everyone work as a team ASAP.
The exact same thing happened my Freshman year on 100 (2005).
I was a rookie then. But our team was in its 10th year!
A mentor built one design and we, the students, built a different one. The situation you describe sounds pretty mellow compared to us. I’m talking all out war between students and adults. It was ridiculous. People even cried It nearly ended the team.
We shipped the mentor built robot. It failed. It could barely move
What little respect we had left for that mentor vanished and we unanimously booted him off the team the next year.
But strangely enough, we all learned more that year then any other year. Looking back, I’m always amazed how dedicated we became when we, the students, were working against a common enemy.
So did we really fail? I don’t know.
Well, I decided to become an engineer. I got inspired. I learned how NOT to design a robot. I learned about what happens when you aren’t organized and people don’t cooperate. In short, the FIRST message prevailed.
Ironically, I learned a tremendous amount from that mentor, despite the fact that he drove our team into the ground.
My advice to you?
Act like engineers and pick whichever design works best. Solve the problem. No matter what happens you’ll still have learned something
1 design to rule them all. Everyone on the team, students and mentors alike, need to understand the compromise that comes with anything that takes place on a team.
In 05 was the only year we did the 2 track thing. One was was the kids and mentors agreed with, the other was a crazy awesome lift of polycarb a mentor and a few kids made. The polycarb one was friggin awesome…but it was wayyyy overweight and overbudget. Designs might be better, but there’s always other factors.
Pick one design and stick to it. Majority rules, but sometimes a compromise can be made without compromising functionality.
Ok, there is a need for a new part. Team gets together and discusses ideas. They narrow it down to two. They decide to go with one idea for whatever reason. One of the employees who didn’t get their idea picked, decides to go ahead with his design. He steals a couple of people from the group to move it forward. He takes money from the mainstream plan to fund his design. The two designs are finished about the same time and are put to the test. There is a possibility of two outcomes:
The individuals idea is indeed better. The team goes with this idea. However, when the boss goes to review the design, he notices what the individual has done. The employee has undermined the team by taking funds and distracting co-workers. That employee is on the fast track to getting fired.
The individuals idea is actually worse. The team goes with the mainstream idea. The boss sees what the individual has done. Wasted time and money on something that is an inferior product. This gets him fired.
Notice a link between the two outcomes? In both, regardless of which design they go with, the person who goes against the team’s best interest is usually fired. Regardless of whether or not they was right. Something to consider for next year. After the stunt that mentor pulled, I’d see about getting him removed from the team. Take these scenarios to the student team leader. See what he has to say.
Yea, you’re totally right. I mean, during the third week we told both students to stop working on the auger because we are trying to focus on our main idea. They said ok, but then when this meeting was called today he used the fact that “forced people” to work on the main idea as a reason to support his claim that we should have two robots. I am just really worried that we get neither finished and we can’t compete this year. If that happens I will be so angry.
I have some points to bring up, and I’m not quite sure you’ll like them.
If there is a sensitive issue on a team, we do have an “anonymous” forum. I’m not sure this doesn’t belong in there, I’m not sure it does. I’m just saying. (You may need to use it eventually…)
Both of you are right. The mentor is right because it’s not about winning. It is about a group taking a project that they all agreed on and worked on to competition and learning along the way. He’s also right–to a point-- that in industry, you do things the best way.
However, you are more right. In industry, you do things the best way that is available. Friction stir welding may be the best way to do X, but most shops don’t have the equipment, meaning that it’s not the best way until you get the equipment (which is kind of expensive). And, after a design is approved, you don’t change it unless of necessity most dire.
The team, not the leader, chose the design. He’s miffed, and develops his own design. This is not good! Most teams, when a design is chosen by the team, lock the design. It’s not open to change, unless something really needs to change. You, as a team, need to talk to this mentor and tell him that he’s acting like a child. (Not in so many words, of course, but that is what he is acting like from your description.) In other words, take the blow to your personal pride and live with the group’s decision.
Your other option is to force his hand. Get working versions of both NOW. I mean ASAP. Test them against each other on a certain day, say Saturday (Sunday at the latest), no exceptions or excuses. If one doesn’t show up, the other wins by default. Winner take all. After build season is NOT the time to make a major change!
You ask about what other teams do with parallel designs. Here’s what my old team does: We don’t cut metal until we know what we’re doing. If two designs serve the same function, we try to have space for both. At some reasonable time, we test all competing designs. The best one for our purposes wins out. We throw all other ideas into mental hoppers–if a design might not work, a “tiger team” figures out a backup plan.
I do know that at a couple of points, designs were tested late in the season against each other with no ill effects–one due to allowance being made already, the other due to being reasonably interchangeable on short notice.
To sum up, if you’re going to revisit your decision, do it now. If not, tell him flat out. Everyone has to make sacrifices, including him. If that includes giving up his design, so be it.
Now that I see this post, it’s really long and intimidating looking. I’m really, really sorry about that- I have a tendency to spew out a lot more words than I expect.
These two thoughts both show a very high level of maturity and understanding. I applaud you for that, and I hope you can continue to voice your concerns reasonably to your team- you have a lot of good insight.
While I think your team probably should have addressed these concerns when it formed and at the beginning on the build season, it is definitely better to deal with them now than to let the repercussions of the disagreements manifest further and cause excess turmoil. You don’t want that kind of tension to stay in your team for long. You should have a team meeting, and discuss the concern you have brought up in the first paragraph I highlighted in the above quote. Teamwork is important- you have to have your whole team in this together. If your team made a decision as a team, your team should honor that and move forward together, even if individuals think there is potential in other options. (I bolded “as a team” because that statement is very important- if the decision did not involve the whole team, then that’s the step where you have to rethink things. Those who were left out of the decision-making process are going to feel the same way you do now.)
The fact that it is your lead mentor who lead the rebellion group is also important. Our mentors have much more engineering experience than us, and a lot of insight from their experiences throughout life. They might see an idea that they believe is the optimal solution, and it is understandable why they would think it is a good idea to bring the team to work on this. However, there is one flaw with this logic- this is not what FIRST is about. FRC is a program for high school students, designed to inspire and teach many lessons that will apply throughout life. The mentors are there to be that- mentors. While they can help enormously with their knowledge and insight, they should not be taking over the reigns to the extent that they are suffocating the creativity and the learning of the students. Perhaps you need to give a gentle reminder that this experience is designed to let you, the students, flourish through the knowledge you obtain through your hard work- the successes and the failures alike. While the robot design your team voted on may not be “the optimal design” in the eyes of your mentors, it is yours- yours to build as a team, yours to learn from as a team. You are absolutely right that you will get a lot more out of losing with a bot that is truly yours than winning with one that was just handed to you.
To reiterate- you should definitely hold a team meeting where you can voice your concerns and discuss these problems with the team. Make sure it is open to the whole team and you are not excluding people by, say, meeting during volleyball practice when everyone on the “auger” team is also on the volleyball team. Consider holding a special meeting outside of build time and sending everyone an e-mail explaining why it is important that they come. The high-energy, high-stress period of the build season can be really frustrating, so remember to remain calm and explain everything rationally during the meeting- your goal is to resolve conflict, not to create more of it.
Also, now that I have explained all of this, I realize I never directly answered your final questions. Ultimately, it makes sense to pick one design and go with it. Building multiple prototypes in the early stages (weeks 1&2) is a good idea to decide what to go with, but like you said, building two full robots is a waste of time and money, and will split your team in half. You should definitely decide on one idea early on and go with it, with your whole team as one. Anyway, good luck!
hmm some times true other times not so much. I always tell my students to follow their gut and speak their mind. There is a difference between a “team player” and a yes man.
As far as the situation at hand. you need to ask your self " what do you want". What is worth more this mentor, or your pride( or your mentors pride or your teams sense of self). if what you want is the best winning robot ever then by all means have the test( but please have each team test and present the others work . . don’t have 1 testing team, I have never had a “fair” result come from 1 testing team). If what you want is an organization that puts the team before the robot than I suggest that you and your team leadership sit down with the mentor and his team and work something out( you will have to lose something when you do this).
what ever the decision you make you need to do it with haste in mind. Design changes( and indecisions) at this stage in the game are too costly
As a mentor, I would like to reach out to all the mentors reading this thread :
Remember what it meant to be a mentor to you before the season started.
If the reason that you volunteered to be a mentor is so you can build a robot, you probably joined the team for the wrong reason in my opinion. As an adult you have plenty of opportunities to see “your design” realized. Give this opportunity to the students.
A mentor is someone that guides the team, for you to be a guide you need to be an honest broker. It is like when you are a foreign country and you hire a “guide”, that individual will provide you ideas of what to see and what to do, but in the end is you that make a decision. A guide shows the path, leads in the path, but doesn’t drag others along.
I am aware of what my team picked for their robot design, I am also fully aware what other teams picked for their designs. I will say this, the team that will win this competition, is the team that will be able to compete next year, and the next year, and the next year, and the next year…and ever.
I really don’t care about the robot design.
It is not about who has the best design, it is about who has a team that will go on, go on even if they loose their Mentor. Or if their Coach quits because she is overwhelmed. The main sponsor drop out and you are out of $6,000.
Thank you all for your input. I’m going to talk to our student team leader and try to have a meeting with them.
I know that we should have put an end to this earlier but the thing was, at first it was really small and he said that this would be totally non-intrusive to the main design, it would be worked on outside of our build time and would only be used if our initial design totally didn’t work. Since some time has passed and they had a little more progress to the design, his demeanor totally changed and went to this test.
Honestly, there is no way they could get it up and running in the next few days. All they have is a frame with two wheels, and the big worm gear that will be the auger, but there is no electronic integration at all, and no program. Our programming team consist of two people, myself and another kid (who frankly has no idea how Lab View works yet). It’s hard enough for me to not knowing what lab view was before the build season, but to make two fully functioning robots is just impossible for me, and I am not going to make two very weak programs just so that they both have something.
It nearly ended the team.