Team Update 1-17-2014

FIRST General Forum
1

[Administrative Manual](http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term 152):

Administrative Manual
6.10 ENTREPRENEURSHIP AWARD sponsored by Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers

6.10.2 Guidelines

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE: Please detail how the team is structured to 1) Raise funds; 2) Ensure funds are properly spent; 3) Find and engage sponsors; 4) Recruit team members/mentors for current & future seasons; 5) Ensure FIRST principles remain core to the team’s efforts. Uploading an image of your team organizational chart below, will also satisfy this requirement.

(1600 characters allowed, including spaces and punctuation. Graphic image allowed** in addition to or as an alternative to text **- upload 5” x 4” 100 dpi resolution images that end in .JPG or .GIF)
…

FINANCIAL STATEMENT: Please include information on team finances (include financial statement detailing income and expenditures). Uploading an image of your team financial plan below, will also satisfy this requirement.

(1600 characters allowed, including spaces and punctuation. Graphic image allowed** in addition to or as an alternative to text**- upload 5” x 4” 100 dpi resolution images that end in .JPG or .GIF)

[Game Manual](http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0#term 153):

Game Manual
Section 2.2.4: VISION TARGETS
The retro-reflective material on the dynamic VISION TARGET is nominally 3¾ in. from the FIELD-side surface of the ALLIANCE WALL polycarbonate sheet above the LOW GOAL.

Section 3.2.3: General Rules
G12

An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION:

“carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
“herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
“launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT),
“trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL per instance. If extended, another TECHNICAL FOUL. If strategic, RED CARD for the ALLIANCE.

Section 4.6: BUMPER Rules
R26

In Team Update 2014-01-14:

BUMPERS must be supported by the structure/frame of the ROBOT (see Figure 4-10). To be considered supported, a minimum of ½ in. at each end of the BUMPER must be backed by the FRAME PERIMETER. Additionally, any gap between the backing material and the frame

  • must not be greater than ¼ in. deep or
  • the BUMPER must be backed by the FRAME PERIMETER at least every 8 in wide.

In Manual:

BUMPERS must be supported by the structure/frame of the ROBOT (see Figure 4-10). To be considered supported, a minimum of ½ in. at each end of the BUMPER must be backed by the FRAME PERIMETER. Additionally, any gap between the backing material and the frame

  • must not be greater than ¼ in. deep, and (change to “or” per last TU)
  • not more than
    8 in. wide.

Section 5.1: Overview
**In the event where order placement of ROBOTS matters to either or both ALLIANCES, the ALLIANCE must notify the Head Referee during setup for that MATCH. Upon notification, the Head Referee will require ALLIANCES to place their ROBOTS per the following protocol:

Qualification MATCHES

Blue GOALIE (if in use)
Red GOALIE (if in use)
Blue ROBOTS in the White ZONE
Red ROBOTS in the White ZONE

Elimination MATCHES

Lower seed GOALIE (if in use)
Higher seed GOALIE (if in use)
Lower seed ROBOTS in the White ZONE
Higher seed ROBOTS in the White ZONE**

Section 6: Glossary
POSSESS: (for a ROBOT) to carry (move while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT), herd (repeated pushing or bumping), launch (impel BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT), or trap (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them) a BALL.

2

impel BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT

That really opens up some defensive play.

3

Possessing the opponents ball is still prohibited. Care to explain your thoughts?

4

Hit it.

5

The new standard for ground-only (no manipulator) POSSESSION is herding (repeated pushing or bumping) and trapping. If you drive by, and hit the opponents ball away, then drive away, you’re good. Basically, if you aren’t in control of it after you hit it (once) away, you should be penalty free.

6

Exactly, you can now plow into their ball once and drive away.

7

I believe the concern was that attempting to deflect an opponents ball (ie a single bump on the ball that sent it in a new, likely desired, direction) could be considered launching and earn a penalty via g12. This update makes it clear that getting in the way like that is legal and does not incur a penalty.

8

I have a question on the bumper rule. Do robot wheels qualify as part of the “frame” for the purposes of backing the bumper less than 1/4" away from the plywood? Can the wheels be the “frame” members that break up the span between the ends into <8" long portions, for the purposes of satisfying the bumper rules.

9

Per R2,

The ROBOT must have a FRAME PERIMETER, contained within the BUMPER ZONE, that is comprised of fixed, non-articulated structural elements of the ROBOT. Minor protrusions no greater than ¼ in. such as bolt heads, fastener ends, and rivets are not considered part of the FRAME PERIMETER.

Wheels would not qualify as fixed, non-articulated structural elements. If I were inspecting your robot, I would not count the wheels as sufficient backing for the bumpers, but as always the only definitive answer you can get is the Q&A.

10

So, if you catch an opponents ball (by mistake - not through any intent on either alliance’s part), then you incur a penalty if you keep it, and you incur a penalty if you kick it out of your robot?

Seems to provide a powerful deterrent to an open-topped passive catching design.

Do I have this correct?

  • Mr. Van
    Coach, Robodox
11

That’s the way I always understood the rule, and the update doesn’t seem to have changed that.

12

I think this update further clarifies POSSESSION as:

“launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT)

So, now there is no doubt that if an opponent ball accidentally landed in your robot and you use a mechanism to remove the ball, you can be penalized.

13

Technically there is still a loop hole. If you catch the opposing alliance’s ball and don’t move you have not technically possessed the ball according to the definition.

14

Incorrect. You are “Trapping” the ball

“trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).

15

So, if an opponent’s ball lands in your robot, the only way to not incur a penalty is to not move?

It seems to me then that “catching” requires some sort of active mechanism that will NOT work unless you really want it to, or you must make a covered top for your robot so that a ball can’t fall into it at all. For example, all of the “3-day” robots are very vulnerable to opponent’s balls landing in them.

I thought that the Truss Toss & Catch was one of the best elements in the game, but now instead of designing something that will trap a flying ball, we’ve got to make sure we DON’T catch an errant bounce from our opponent.

I hope this gets fixed quickly!

  • Mr. Van
    Coach, Robodox
16

Nothing needs to be “fixed”…

If your robot is designed to catch at any time, that is your design decision, and you need to stay away from the opponent’s balls. If you want to be in the mix pushing people around, especially when your opponent is trying to TRUSS/CATCH, your robot better not be able to catch balls.

17

Wrong. If an opponents ball lands in your robot and you stop moving and you were not purposefully catching the ball, then you are not shielding the ball purposefully from the other alliance.

If the other alliance’s ball happens to land inside your robot and it was inadvertent, if you stop moving immediately then it would seem that you would not be penalized.

18

Agreed, I would not consider a ball inside of your robot as trapping. But, I would also not consider this the intent, or even a strategy that should be implemented in any way.

19

“launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction via a MECHANISM in motion relative to the ROBOT)

The only thing this update was trying to change/clarify is the fact that a single hit of the ball with the bumpers or any other static part of the robot is not considered possession. A bot that unintentionally catches a ball is affected as it always was.

I think this change was necessary because there would have been controversy on every call/no call made in regards to a robot contacting an opposing alliance’s ball. I just hope strategically this doesn’t hurt the game too much. Assisting is going to be significantly harder now, at least at regionals, because not only does an alliance bot need to do more to gain possession, but a defending bot can literally seek to hit the ball now.

20

As the rules are written, I believe you’re right.

That being said, I highly doubt the call will be this cut and dry. If you catch a ball, put your hands up in the air, and make it clear to the refs that you did not intend to do it, and you don’t want to actively release it, then what happens? Do you sit there for the rest of the match as a black hole? Does the Head Ref make the call to put another ball into play as if your robot died with a ball in it? It’s an interesting (and annoying) situation to think about for sure.

If anything, there needs to be some sort of grace period for an unintentional catch, where a machine is given some reasonable amount of time (say 5-10 seconds) to get the ball out of their robot without being penalized - although even that isn’t that simple. On paper, there are certain situations where it may make sense for a team to build a human load only machine, where the only method of releasing the ball they have is a truss or goal shot - at that point, does them shooting the ball (where ever) turn an accident into a strategic advantage? Teams with intakes or other methods of doing a ‘slow’ and or ‘controlled’ ball release wouldn’t really be an issue here, since they could essentially drop the ball where it was caught and carry on with the match.