Tell me why I'm wrong. Please...

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Daniel, Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M Gunn Senior High School and NASA Ames.

Posted on 4/6/99 11:42 PM MST

I think Chris was really on target to ask for comments on his opinion. I keep finding people talking about no rejections, but every time I make a post, the thread dies only to be resurrected a few days later. Anyway, please comment on my opinion. If there’s a good reason why I’m wrong on this, I’ll make a complete turnaround. Otherwise, like Chris, I’m gonna punch holes. This might look familiar, it was taken from an earlier post in the general forum. Thanks!

I think FIRST is smarter than we are giving them credit for. They’ve come up with a great system this year. Here’s why. After only 6 QMs, the top 16 seeds won’t necessarily be the top 16 robots, and even if by some chance they are, the robots certainly won’t be in the correct order. The process FIRST has devised allows for the most deserving of the top 16 to pair with the most deserving of the non-qualified 'bots. This eliminates the randomness of the seeding process. Besides, just because a team isn’t seeded in the top 16, that doesn’t mean they aren’t one of the best robots. A very good defensive robot could be seeded 63rd and still well deserve to do a little choosing of it’s own. It all depends on how you play. But I digress, the point I was trying to bring across was that you shouldn’t focus too much on the downsides, because when you don’t it becomes clear that FIRST has implemented this rule as a deliberate attempt to make the game fair, which is really the main issue. Don’t you think?

FIRST, if you’re out there…good job!

-Daniel Lehrbaum
GRT Student Co-Captain

2

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 4/7/99 8:12 AM MST

In Reply to: Tell me why I’m wrong. Please… posted by Daniel on 4/6/99 11:42 PM MST:

Here is my take on this whole thing with rejections. I think that making a no rejections rule could be good and bad. Good for the fact that it could eliminate back room dealing. I personally have never liked the fact that there was even a remote possiblility of the many scenario’s that Joe spoke of earlier in the year. However think of this, you are in the top 8 and you pick a team who you soon find out doesn’t get along with you well at all. They didn’t want to work with you in the first place, but they were forced into competing with you. For that reason i think that rejections should be allowed. I do agree with Dan with the fact that FIRST has done a great job dealing with all these problems, and whatever their desisions may be for the nationals im positive that the reasons for making those desisions are good.
Good Luck to all
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS

3

Posted by Raul, Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling HS and Motorola.

Posted on 4/7/99 11:54 AM MST

In Reply to: Rejections vs. No Rejections posted by Andy Grady on 4/7/99 8:12 AM MST:

: Here is my take on this whole thing with rejections. I think that making a no rejections rule could be good and bad. Good for the fact that it could eliminate back room dealing. I personally have never liked the fact that there was even a remote possiblility of the many scenario’s that Joe spoke of earlier in the year. However think of this, you are in the top 8 and you pick a team who you soon find out doesn’t get along with you well at all. They didn’t want to work with you in the first place, but they were forced into competing with you. For that reason i think that rejections should be allowed. I do agree with Dan with the fact that FIRST has done a great job dealing with all these problems, and whatever their desisions may be for the nationals im positive that the reasons for making those desisions are good.
: Good Luck to all
: Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS

I cannot and will not attempt to change anyones opinion on Rejections or Multiple Regionals. This is like try to convince someone that their religion is not the best.

We all have opinions based on paradigms and values which are shaped by our experiences. I guess it is just fun to voice our opinion and see what others think. So, as Chris said, we should not take these conversations too seriously.

Having said all that, I would just like to say that there is value in learning to cope with rules that you don’t like and with differing opinions. This is as much of the learning process as analyzing the stress on a lift member. In reply to Andy’s comment, I would like to say that being forced to deal with a team, as an ally, that you didn’t necessarily want or even liked, is a learning experience that may also be valueable. We all have to deal with this in our real jobs at some point or another. It is amazing how your point of view (paradigm) can change when forced to deal with an unfamiliar situation.

No matter how unfair any of us think anything is in the FIRST competition, we keep coming back for more. Sponsors may come and go; but those that stick with it are the ones that truely care about what FIRST is trying to accomplish.

Finally, I have to say (just my opinion, so it is guaranteed that someone will disagree) that if we could afford to go to 10 regionals and the rules allowed it, I would go because it is FUN to compete. FUN :-), FUN :>), FUN =) - Remember FUN %^)?

Raul

4

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 4/7/99 12:32 PM MST

In Reply to: Politics, Religion, Stereotypes … and now Making FIRST Better posted by Raul on 4/7/99 11:54 AM MST:

: Finally, I have to say (just my opinion, so it is guaranteed that someone will disagree) that if we could afford to go to 10 regionals and the rules allowed it, I would go because it is FUN to compete. FUN :-), FUN :>), FUN =) - Remember FUN %^)?

Hear, here!!!

5

Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 4/7/99 12:52 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Politics, Religion, Stereotypes … and now Making FIRST Better posted by Jerry Eckert on 4/7/99 12:32 PM MST:

Well put Raul, but remember, half the fun is conversing about things like these. Thats why this message board is so good. It helps us converse with people other than those on our own team, and get a little diversity about this competition. But you are right, what it all comes down to is the fun.
Good Luck
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS

6

Posted by Reuben Hintz, Student on team #53 from Eleanor Roosevelt HS.

Posted on 4/7/99 3:39 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Politics, Religion, Stereotypes … and now Making FIRST Better posted by Andy Grady on 4/7/99 12:52 PM MST:

You adults are getting a little too into this. Don’t you have jobs?
Psych! We’re going to FLORIDA! Who-Hooooo!

7

Posted by Jerry Eckert, Engineer on team #140 from Tyngsboro, MA High School and New England Prototype/Brooks Automation.

Posted on 4/7/99 12:44 PM MST

In Reply to: Tell me why I’m wrong. Please… posted by Daniel on 4/6/99 11:42 PM MST:

Daniel,

It’s quite likely you’re being ignored because they can’t provide any
substantive arguments to refute your points. Don’t take it personally.
I also wrote a long message (see link below) detailing why I agreed with
the alliance selection system as it was implemented for the regionals.
I didn’t see a single disagreement with the points I raised, yet the
whining about ‘unfairness’ continued on.

: I think Chris was really on target to ask for comments on his opinion. I keep finding people talking about no rejections, but every time I make a post, the thread dies only to be resurrected a few days later. Anyway, please comment on my opinion. If there’s a good reason why I’m wrong on this, I’ll make a complete turnaround. Otherwise, like Chris, I’m gonna punch holes. This might look familiar, it was taken from an earlier post in the general forum. Thanks!

: I think FIRST is smarter than we are giving them credit for. They’ve come up with a great system this year. Here’s why. After only 6 QMs, the top 16 seeds won’t necessarily be the top 16 robots, and even if by some chance they are, the robots certainly won’t be in the correct order. The process FIRST has devised allows for the most deserving of the top 16 to pair with the most deserving of the non-qualified 'bots. This eliminates the randomness of the seeding process. Besides, just because a team isn’t seeded in the top 16, that doesn’t mean they aren’t one of the best robots. A very good defensive robot could be seeded 63rd and still well deserve to do a little choosing of it’s own. It all depends on how you play. But I digress, the point I was trying to bring across was that you shouldn’t focus too much on the downsides, because when you don’t it becomes clear that FIRST has implemented this rule as a deliberate attempt to make the game fair, which is really the main issue. Don’t you think?

: FIRST, if you’re out there…good job!

:
: -Daniel Lehrbaum
: GRT Student Co-Captain