Don’t stop posting here, please… we’re ALL friendly here… 
–Michael Blake
WHO recruits?! Private/home schoolers find us and approach us to join our team year-after-year.
THAT now stops for 3481 as instructed by our UIL certified public school district which is their prerogative–but I don’t have to be happy about it even though I love our school and they’ve been super-supportive in most everything else.
Starting next season, I have to now turn-away hungry to contribute in FRC and deserving private/home school teenagers who will have no other reasonable way of being on an FRC team if they cannot be on ours.
–Michael Blake
Michael, this sounds like your frustration is not with anyone on this forum, any FRC team, any FRC volunteer, or even FIRST in Texas. If your ISD is instructing you on this policy, then I would suggest you address these complaints to your ISD or to UIL directly. You certainly have contacts in your ISD and there is a UIL contact listed in the announcement distributed by FIRST in Texas.
OF COURSE my frustration is directly with FIRST-in-Texas.
They DID NOT have to do this deal in this form. I was at the meeting in Austin with FiT and UIL… I didn’t see you there, Jeffrey?!
They could’ve said, IF we can’t get a UIL deal that doesn’t exclude ANY students then we won’t do it.
But, the lure, and there’s always the lure, of exploding revenue to FIRST-in-Texas by the expected jump in team numbers from this agreement was the driving factor to doing a deal that results in throwing some students under the bus IMO.
–Michael Blake
I will preface this by saying that I am not affiliated with any FRC team. I am an FTC guy. By their very nature the two have very different issues as it relates to UIL. I understand the discussions that have been going back and forth about mixed teams, non school teams, etc. There is a lot of discussion about the exclusion of home school kids, private school kids, etc. While it might not be “fair” that is how UIL works. In addition to robotics, I am the sponsor for our UIL Computer Science team. If a home school student comes to me and shows a love for learning programming and wants to be a part of the team, I have to tell them no. That’s how it works and it won’t change.
If TAPPS wanted to start a robotics competition, I doubt they would let the public schools join them. That is how it works. By choosing to be a home school student or a going to a private school, a student gives us their right to compete in events sponsored by organization focused on public schools.
Now with that said, I will transition to the FTC issue I see and I ask for feedback/discussion. In UIL every other team competition, only one team per school is allowed to compete. However, for UIL robotics, there is no limit on how many teams from one school can compete if more than one school meets the requirements. Back to my Comp. Sci. analogy. A CS team is made up of 3 students…If I have students and can make the best 2 CS teams around, I can still only send one to UIL Competitions. Why is robotics being handles differently? If the intent is to promote robotics and increase participation, how is allowing a school to send 5 or 6 teams going to do that. It won’t. And before any of my colleagues play the “if you want to go get better card”, let me again go to every other UIL event. Multiple teams from one school are not allowed to compete. If a school could field 2 state champion level debate teams, they can’t send them. If a school sends multiple teams to invitational and/or practice meets and they win every award, they still can’t send them to even a district level event. One team per school is the rule for every other team UIL event. Why should robotics be any different? UIL is using the FTC game for his state event, they should limit participation to one team per school. If a school has 7 or 8 high caliber teams, they can advance through the normal FTC process and go to Worlds. Taking teams that have already advanced to Worlds and saying those are the teams get to compete for the UIL State Championship is, imo, unfair to other UIL schools that have programs and weren’t able to advance.
Ok, climbing off of my soapbox for now.
It’s my understanding, I’m a transplant from Long Island, TAPPS was formed as a reaction to the exclusionary dogma and territory avarice of UIL Texas.
–Michael Blake
I just don’t understand that statement IF it’s about the students.
However, FIRST-in-Texas did not have to do a deal with UIL that has an unimpeachable negative and exclusionary impact on some present and future students.
–Michael Blake
Hi All,
I am posting some additional context and thoughts here, but I don’t intend to respond to any further posts made to this thread. Please email me if you want to talk off-line.
We knew going forward with Texas Robot Roundup adopting the UIL Robotics State Championship - FIRST Division this season was going to stir up controversy. All big changes do. But after careful weighing, we determined that it was the most adequate option. Not ideal, but adequate to meet our needs.
TRR, for better or worse, “has served as the “state championship” for Texas” as John Schneider has pointed out. When we move to the district model (we’re aiming for sooner, not later), we will need a state championship. The partnership with the UIL lead to the more immediate need for a “pilot” state championship, with the obvious restriction to recognizing UIL teams. Rather than running teams ragged with two “state championships” (an unofficial TRR “state championship” and the UIL state championship with just UIL teams), we combined the two and demanded that we would be allowed to have non-UIL teams also compete, but just not receive recognition from UIL.
Texas Robot Roundup is an off-season event. It has never been an official FIRST competition, ever and still is not. Up until this point, we have provided open registration, with some spots reserved, rather than going the IRI invite route and deciding who would be in attendance. That was a choice that the Planning Committee (or myself as the Event Director) was free to change at any time in the past, just as we all are free to dissolve the event at any time. There is no guarantee that TRR would or will exist year to year; it’s simply because of the hard work of many awesome volunteers and teams. TRR is never a guarantee for any of your teams.
This year, and for this year only, TRR is going an invitation route, with the caveat that the invitation is based on UIL membership and ranking. Once again, it is still an off-season event. There are other off-season events throughout the state (and in neighboring states) that I enthusiastically encourage your teams to participate in. And there are still at the very least 10 spots that non-UIL teams can apply for, in addition to any spots that UIL eligible teams do not accept by June 1st.
The UIL partnership does not change the way teams compete during the regular season. Moving to the district model where we will have a District/State Championship, the UIL will be allowed to recognize teams there as well, but will not be able to dictate which teams compete. Teams from UIL member schools are not required to be recognized by the UIL; the UIL is not forcing students off your teams. If your administrators are the ones forcing you to meet the UIL requirements, that is an important conversation you need to have with them.
FIRST will NEVER turn away students from competing and FIRST in Texas will continue to do it’s best to make sure students are able to participate on a team. If you are suddenly in a position where you are being forced by your administrators to remove kids from your team, it is certainly not what we want to see. But there are a variety of options, including your team helping start another team that is a home for those students. The new team can still work with and be mentored by your team. There are absolutely no restrictions on how teams work with others. They will certainly be funded by FIRST in Texas just like any other team that qualifies for funding. Or, as Leigh mentions below, go independent.
I am sorry that so many people are upset about how Texas Robot Roundup is functioning this summer, but I ask that everyone please take a step back and realize, as I stated above, that TRR is an off-season event. There are far more important things to be upset about. But perhaps I should just rage quit and cancel TRR?
Hang in there, everyone.
After multiple conversations with some of the people involved in that decision to go UIL I honestly believe that they made the decision based on what would be good for the majority of the teams in Texas. I have gone to great lengths to explain to my team that UIL will in no way affect what we do in FIRST. We can still participate(and win) in either Regionals or Districts(when we go that route). 3999’s history is based on the fact that we did not want to be constrained by our district rules about who could be a member. If your district is going to enforce URL rules and they dont suit you, maybe its time to go independent?
Let me add… NOBODY here is bad guy/gal.
I believe everyone involved has good intentions and are good people–some I really like individually.
I just don’t agree with the goals of FIRST-in-Texas and their approaches and their insularity from real team leaders, like myself, who try to get involved with FiT and offer to contribute and to help shape goals and approaches and are rebuffed from getting involved, because we’re not in the club, where the rubber hits the road.
Has anyone looked lately at the FIRST-in-Texas board roster? WHERE’S the experienced experts on running FIRST FRC and FTC teams?
ALL accomplished folks on the board, for sure, but how would they know what we teams need and want in Texas competition robotics?
And you can see the actual fruits of this experience gap in the UIL deal as it’s now constituted.
–Michael Blake
If they wanted to play a role in the creation of a UIL robotics competition, they did. By its very nature UIL is exclusionary…FiT is not in a position to make them change how they function, UIL isn’t going to change it’s rules for a pilot program.
I understand your position that every student should get to participate. As part of a FRC team, they get to do that through the normal FIRST FRC events. UIL doens’t let private or home school students compete in any UIL events. At least those kids your fighting for have an the regular FIRST events.
Maybe, but they don’t let public schools or public school students compete. There is no difference between what they do and what UIL does.
AGREED… on UIL not having to change.
But, FIRST-in-Texas did NOT have to do a deal with UIL–they could’ve walked away and said we won’t participate in anything that excludes any students.
–Michael Blake
Getting UiL support for FRC and FTC would be a big benefit for the majority of teams in Texas which are from UiL sponsored schools, as it would most likely result in more support for those teams. Although some may be excluded, it is a big help to those teams (WHICH are the MAJORITY) that are UiL legal teams.
Although I see where you are coming from, there really is no need to start an argument here. Instead, bring it up with the UIL contact in the aforementioned link.
To balance things out… FIRST-in-Texas does a lot of things right too… and they have people that really care about FIRST and its mission.
I look forward to the day when there’s more input and participation from experienced adult team leaders to help shape and implement an aspirational FiT mission.
–Michael Blake
It’s not an “argument” it’s a discussion… I thought that’s what message boards were for?
–Michael Blake
Yes, they could have but they would have given up an opportunity to be involved in what could be a very large promotional opportunity for FIRST. I don’t want to see another platform be the “official” platform for UIL.
I don’t fault them for wanting to be involved, nor do I fault them for adhering to some UIL rules. What I fault them for (on the FTC side) is not having an equitable selection process for those schools who meet UIL eligibility standards but couldn’t advance from regionals. To be blunt, I don’t think one school should get to send multiple teams to compete for the UIL State Championship.
Michael,
We share your frustrations, as JV, is aswell a Non UIL team. This seems to be an interesting topic, as we are number 4, on the list but have to apply, and won’t be on the invite list initially.
I know for a fact that two of the FiT board members have experience mentoring both FLL and FTC teams. And one of them has participated as an FRC mentor as well. I also know that two others on the board are very active in organizing FIRST Robotics activities through their employer and have participated in a variety of FIRST related contests throughout the past. I believe the board of FiT is working toward improving robotics for all students in Texas. As the district model comes to Texas, finances to pay for the increased number of tournaments is a big factor. I have had conversations with no less than five of the board members.
UIL does not have any consequences on official FIRST activities.
I do not see now FIRST in Texas sees the lure of extra finances from increased number of teams. No money goes to FIRST in Texas in regards to an increased number of teams in Texas.
I am at a school district that does not allow students outside of my school to participate in our robotics program. I know there are FRC teams that do allow this. I am losing a student this year who is moving to a private school that does not have robotics. I cannot do anything about the situation except to help him impress on the administration at his new school on the impact robotics can have on students, find him a team he can participate on or help him start on a new team of some sort. We shall see what happens in the upcoming months on his plight.
UIL is the one who has chosen to recognize robotics as an activity and chosen BEST and FIRST as the ones to work with in the pilot. I for one was against UIL recognizing only one or two and not more. This year is a pilot program. As Jess said, this is the only year TRR will be impacted. UIL recognizing and promoting robotics is a good thing for all of us. It gives more credibility and raises the awareness.
I also believe that the conversation started higher up than FIRST in Texas and UIL. FIRST Headquarters have been involved in this conversation for a good while.
The meeting with UIL in Austin was not open to the public so many teams and individuals could not participate in the meetings with UIL. Even earlier than the planning meeting was the Executive Council meeting in October of 2014. Many active users here on CD were present as well representatives from multiple robotics programs. Robotics had more individuals speak about the importance of STEM and Robotics. Each made different points and different opinions. What was very apparent was the shock and surprise from the UIL Executive Council not only in the interest in robotics but also in the many different programs that were out there.
I have some slightly different #s: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ky1RxoLDVJNKltucq16-NDj4qWSwOUEvX1cUvIr8nqo/edit?usp=sharing
I don’t think it changes the top 32, but just changes some ordering within there. For instance, Drakxii has 1296 with 60 pts, and I couldn’t figure out what we might be doing different from each other.
I removed EI/Chairmans from award points then averaged event scores otherwise (qual + alliance + elim + general awards), then added in the EI/CHairmans/RAS + Rookie/2nd year bonuses. I didn’t not include any out of state EI/Chairmans/RAS either, as the only ones I’m aware of (Spectrum and Appreciate) don’t affect anything other than order within the top 32.
The top 50ish I see are
Rank Team Total points
1 frc118 73
2 frc3310 73
3 frc148 72
4 frc4587 71
5 frc4063 64
6 frc5431 58.5
7 frc231 57
8 frc3005 56.5
9 frc1296 55
10 frc2848 53.5
11 frc5726 52
12 frc624 51.5
13 frc1477 51
14 frc2468 50
15 frc57 46
16 frc6133 45.5
17 frc6171 45
18 frc5775 44
19 frc5572 43
20 frc2158 42.33333333
21 frc5057 42
22 frc5829 39
23 frc3847 38
24 frc4301 38
25 frc5417 37.5
26 frc2881 37
27 frc3679 35
28 frc5986 35
29 frc3481 33.5
30 frc3802 33.5
31 frc2583 32
32 frc6144 31
33 frc2805 30
34 frc5414 28.5
35 frc3366 28
36 frc2789 27
37 frc3743 27
38 frc3999 26.5
39 frc4639 26.5
40 frc3355 26
41 frc4192 26
42 frc4364 26
43 frc5411 26
44 frc418 25.5
45 frc4694 25
46 frc5242 25
47 frc2587 24
48 frc2882 24
49 frc3676 24
50 frc5892 24
51 frc5981 24
52 frc6196 24
As far as everything else in this thread goes - it is what it is for this year. There are advantages to FIRST being a UIL recognized program - and I believe that FiT has made their choice based on how to help the most students. Everything about it was kind of rushed (and happening at a weird time) - which implies to me that there is probably good reason why it’s going down the way it did - whether it’s due to a big gain or avoiding a big loss. It may be that FIRST would have been left in the dust as another robotics program became the UIL program. That would mean that it could become even tougher for teams to get support from their district. Being UIL could mean travel money for teams whenever they qualify for the “next level”. It can mean students can get letter jackets (which while it’s something silly in my book might mean something to plenty of students that wouldn’t really letter in anything else).
Yes, it stinks for a a number of teams. I’m not really sure yet if we’ll be UIL so we might be one of those that would have to apply this year for TRR. Maybe it’s time some San Antonio teams started forming an off season event so that there’s another one within driving distance? And like others have said - this is a band aid fix to this year. I’ll be curious to see how it is addressed in future years and it’ll probably be a learning process. It’s still not clear to me if when we move to districts will there be a district champs in Week 7 (that UIL teams would be recognized at?), world champs, and then “UIL State” champs in May? That could be a lot of competition in a short time for many people.
I think it’s good to make sure that those that are impacted in a negative way to make sure their voices are heard. But I don’t believe this is creating a “second class” type team - it’s UIL piggy backing off of an existing program and allowing people that meet UIL requirements to go and compete in it. Once UIL isn’t part of TRR - the only people who will care if they win UIL state champs will be people that can go tell their schools/district that are UIL members. Maybe I’m being overly optimistic - but I don’t see this negatively affecting anything beyond this years TRR at a high level. It may very well cause issues with individual teams that are associated with districts that will want them to be UIL eligible though. But I stated above, I’m sure the numbers game points to more students being positively impacted (a district/school that shows better support or starts an FRC team because it’s UIL) then negatively impacted (an existing team no longer allowing non-UIL students). With FIRST being a worldwide thing - it’s not like any of the regionals/district competitions would have anything that impacts teams with non-UIL members. /:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: ]