In this recent post:
That made me think. Let’s make this thread the official Chief Delphi opinion. It can sure help a lot of teams to read it.
Lets start with what i got from you:
-Casters are EVIL
I really don’t like the idea of this kind of thread. While I do agree that there is, and seems to increasingly be, a favored opinion on a variety of topics on chief delphi. I don’t think it is necessarily healthy. Maybe this is just me, but I feel like having a diversity of opinions is a GOOD thing. Hearing different perspectives and debating them as reasonable individuals is one of the most valuable ways of learning. If we just shut off this debate when regarding to “topics A through N” I feel like we will have stepped down a bad road, a road of “quasi-censorship.”
Furthermore, I feel like this would only further alienate many new-comers, especially students, who are the primary (although certainly not only) ones that are here to learn. I would hate to learn from a system that just says, “No you’re opinion isn’t valid when you’re here because a bunch of people have already decided that this is the right and only way when you’re here.” What if schools were run this way. What if your teachers refused to even hear your opinions because they always assumed they were right? What if, even though they were right, they never took the time to listen to you? Learning and mental development is a process, where hard questions must be tackled. I would hate for chief delphi to be a place where people were uncomfortable asking questions because “those questions have already been answered, and we don’t want to hear your opinion if it differs from ours.”
I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but many of the topics broached on these forums, technical and non-technical, are very much grey areas, and therefore warrant reasoned discussion. Please let’s not do anything to endanger that discussion.
EDIT: Also, I want to make sure you know that I don’t think you are trying to create this kind of culture, nor will this kind of culture necessarily arise from a thread like this. I just foresee this as an unintentional step toward that kind of culture, and that scares me. I hope that clarifies my post a bit.
Yeah, a post like this will only further the development of a Chief Delphi Hivemind opinion, that new people to the site will feel like they must abide by or fear being lynched by mobs when an intelligent discussion is being had.
Perhaps we could turn this into a constructive thread where we highlight some of the more prevalent stereotypes (or things that stall a discussion) that we’ve come across? Use it to see how others see CD and maybe work to change that?
However, I worry that it may become a case of someone saying something like “Ahhhhh, on HOT Team the mentors build the robot, and their coach is annoying.”* and the next 2 pages of a thread repeatedly explaining how none of that is true.
- -Karthik (Effective FIRST Strategies for Design and Competition)
Given the snide vitriol that can come out of a discussion of mecanum wheels, I don’t think it’s a good idea to start putting forth group opinions as if consensus somehow makes people right.
I like this.
Constructive idea: Unless the game is similar to 2009, I think it’s beneficial for all teams to have at least 4 CIM motors in their drivetrain.
I’m going to avoid eating my own tail by further belaboring the point but I’ll just say that in my opinion something like this is not only unwarranted, but also potentially detrimental to the community at large. I don’t go talk to all of my friends to try to reach nay consensus on opinions because despite disagreement, most people are pretty cool with free thought.
One positive approach might be to lay out the thread as a point-counter point. No extended arguing in-house, just adding potential counter-examples to “conventional wisdom”. If we did it right, it might actually serve to illustrate–and nurture–the non-hivemind side of CD. Something like:
Remark: casters are EVIL
Counter-example: It looks like 93 made finals at the 2002 championship on a creatively used caster, and Buzz won the 2001 New England Regional.
That said, I agree with the concerns raised. It’s dangerous territory; this is only the way I’d recommend approaching it if we did keep the thread open.
Is this perhaps the Chief Delphi opinion then? 
We all like to think that these “standard opinions” were reached for a good reason, and many times they are. However, we should also keep in mind that a lot of great creativity and innovation comes from individuals who challenge commonly held beliefs. As Siri also pointed out, there are counter examples to the belief that casters are bad.
But let me give some other classic counter examples. At one point, everyone in the world knew, without a doubt, that the world was flat. Once that was shown to be false, everyone knew, without a doubt, that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything revolved around us.
There’s nothing wrong with addressing someone’s question by highlighting a commonly held belief. If someone comes on here and asks if they should use casters on their robot, it’s fine to say no. But you should also take the time to list the reasons why. Look at those situations not as an annoying question that everyone knows the answer to, but as a chance to re-examine your own beliefs and prove them out to the wider audience.
Think of how much faster science would have progressed if our society had done that when talking about a flat Earth, or an Earth-centric view of the universe, instead of waiting for the one person brave enough to defend their position against the hoards that parroted “conventionally held wisdom” without really understanding it.
I will agree that people are scared to post on Chief Delphi, but we should be focusing on why they are scared to post. If the answer truly is they feel intimidated then perhaps it’s because they aren’t confident enough in their response and perhaps shouldn’t post.
If I am a new student and don’t have the experience to weigh in on something that others are more knowledgeable about then that student probably shouldn’t post. I don’t go into the programming thread and give my opinion because I have no experience in that area.
More than half of my posts have come in the past 3 years and my register date is in 2005. I did a lot of reading and gained experience before I started posting more.
We should go a little easier on new posters but they have a responsibility as well to not post beyond their experience because when they do its obvious
While I agree with your sentiment–and went through the same thing–it’s my understanding that the referenced intimidation is more about asking questions than providing answers. This is a very serious problem: we shouldn’t be chasing away well-meaning students (or mentors) that want to ask and learn. Being too intimidated to answer is also a concern, particularly if people don’t feel comfortable giving their honest opinions. (Technical facts is a bit of a different story, unless their lack of self-confidence is incorrect and/or CD-caused.) Intimidation against asking questions may be our bigger flaw, though.
Or creating threads? A passionate kid, with 25 posts from another country creates this thread and almost immediately gets attacked. I don’t get it. I’d love to see the community get back to a fun open minded brainstorming - not everything someone does needs to devolve into an argument - in my mind thats why these students are intimidated.
I feel like I missed something here. I read the OP, I read the referenced post (ok the referenced was maybe leaning a bit more controversial), but I honestly don’t get what is so controversial about this thread.
I saw it more as a light hearted attempt to gather up some “quick opinions”, that all of us could choose to take with a grain of salt (or overreact to as it seems to be).
Things like…
- Set Screws Stink
- Lead Screws Are Tough to Use Well
- Iterate as Much as you Can
- Learn from Past Seasons Designs
- Sheet Metal and Rivets can lighten a design
- Speed Controllers Hate Metal Shavings
- Ones and Zeros can be heavy!
- Potentiometers often require precision placement
- Battery Cables are NOT handles
- Safety Glasses are NOT forehead protectors
- Turrets should only be used when necessary
- KISS
etc etc…
I dunno, maybe I’m just not in attack mode these days, or I really seriously missed something, but I think this thread could have been light hearted and fun.
Agreed! (Hi RoeeVulcan!) So let me give this a shot:
-
Set Screws Stink
…But sometimes it’s really hard to KISS around them. We still have one on our swerve modules because the CIM’s shaft is so short. -
Lead Screws Are Tough to Use Well
…Tough, but sometimes worth it! (don’t have examples either way, myself…) -
Iterate as Much as you Can
…Hard to argue with that one. Maybe just be careful that what you “can” isn’t pushing yourself too far
-
Learn from Past Seasons Designs
…The successes and the failures (ok, not so much a counter-example) -
Sheet Metal and Rivets can lighten a design
…And if you rough CAD it and ask for advice, people can help you keep it from becoming a light pile or wrinkled sheet metal! -
Speed Controllers Hate Metal Shavings
…Ok, yeah. -
Ones and Zeros can be heavy!
…But zeros are lighter than ones! -
Potentiometers often require precision placement
…Not sure about anyone else, but we love flexible couplings. They work great, and the only time we’ve ever broken them is when we hard-mounted one to an otherwise cantilevered axle. (Well, and on our swerve display, but kids go crazy on that thing :P) -
Battery Cables are NOT handles
…I suppose the most useful thing I could do is link to this and this -
Safety Glasses are NOT forehead protectors
…Whenever I say this, there’s only one kid that points out the time when they’ve actually protected their forehead. I’ve had it happen, too. So now anyone who wants to is free to wear them on their forehead…and another pair on their eyes. It’s an interesting fashion statement. -
Turrets should only be used when necessary
…I won’t delve to deep into this one, but I think it presents a good place for links to very successful turrets. (We don’t so much ourselves…swerve’s enough work for us!) -
KISS
…but not simpler (“Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler”)
Ah. For every opinion, there is a differing opinion. And, depending on the circumstances they are often both right.
I don’t see many universal truths that should be recorded, since some impressionable kid might believe there are no alternatives. Me, I like to see constructive arguments, because everyone learns. Stating something as a fact quashes those discussions.
All of us are smarter than any of us.
Some facts that possibly might fit:
- Read and follow the rules carefully.
- Search before you post.
- Opinions on CD are not rules; ask on the official FRC Q&A forum.
- If you are stating an opinion, make that clear. If it is a fact, show your source.
I think what a lot of people here on this site don’t entirely get is the perspective of teams that aren’t well represented here. A lot of teams and people simply say “ask the elite teams how they work and then work really hard to get to their level.” After almost 6 years of FRC experience, I have to say that it’s not quite this simple as many people here make it out to be. Coming from a team that repeatedly finds itself struggling to compete successfully and make eliminations, it becomes more and more difficult to motivate students. I’ve had some students come in with extremely bright outlooks and such great ambitions on how the team can perform, but over the course of 4 years of being constantly worn out from the build season and then broken down during competitions, many want little to nothing to do with FIRST after it is all over. I’ve pushed kids to apply for more and more grants and talk to more companies about sponsorships, but it’s difficult to acquire new sponsors or even retain old ones when you can’t compete on the same level as many teams. Even with mentors, many of the mentors that we meet are discouraged by our performance and eventually move on after just one year of commitment. I think there is something to be said about working to attain a goal and striving for a new level, and I don’t suggest that the “elite” teams are doing anything unfair, I just think that this idea that anyone can get to that level is a bit ignorant of the struggles that some teams face year after year.
Hi simplyTired,
Do you have any ideas on what CD or the community at large might be able to do to help? You’re correct, I for one don’t have a strong understanding of how we actually broke that cycle. (We started in 2005 and our first elim appearance was 2010–still a losing season until 2011’s minibot.) It really does feel like just hard work, but I don’t think I was actually working harder than before that time.
You may want a thread of your own.
One thing that Chief Delphi should avoid is the following scenario, which I have seen play out on another set of forums, much to its detriment:
- In the golden age of the forum, users hash out a bunch of lively discussions on a variety of interesting topics. After a while, the general outlines of those arguments become pretty well known to the active population, and it isn’t necessary to repeat them ad nauseum.
- Time passes, and now there are a lot of new users who haven’t read the old arguments. They start making some of the same suggestions and asking the same questions. In many cases, those suggestions have already been examined and found to be lacking, and some of the things might have been tried in the past with poor results.
- The remaining veterans are tired of seeing the same suggestions. They pounce on new people who make those suggestions, sometimes not being very polite about it.
- New people get scared away and the forum stagnates. Now there are a bunch of crotchety, know-it-all, multi-year veterans and very few new people, and the new people who do show up don’t tend to stick around very long.
That situation doesn’t describe Chief Delphi, because the people tend to be a lot nicer here. But it’s a useful cautionary tale.
A while back somebody on CD commented on the large percentage of users who are in their first or second year at any given time. It’s easy to forget that when so many of the posts we read are from veterans with many years of experience.
Certainly, new users should practice some basic etiquette, and I think I can condense that down to two points: 1) spend a bit of your own time researching before asking others to spend their time answering questions; 2) Avoid judging other teams.
I think veteran users should keep the following in mind: 1) New users are going to get intimidated if you throw your weight around, even if you aren’t doing it intentionally. If you’re trying to make a point, it’s more effective and less off-putting if you present logic and evidence rather than emotionally charged language. 2) Feel free to privately roll your eyes when you see a naive post from somebody who hasn’t been around as long as you, but please be polite if you respond; a snotty response doesn’t really impress or help anybody, whereas a quick link to a pertinent thread and a mention of the search function is probably going to get the point across.
I think I must have misinterpreted the original post.