***THE GAME OFFICIAL: AIM HIGH***

FIRST General Forum
#91

I have a specific question. It states in this rule:

<G13> Balls Contained in ROBOTs at the Start of a match - Each ALLIANCE will start a match with 40 balls.
Each ROBOT may contain up to 10 balls at the start of a match. Any balls not contained within the robot
will be evenly distributed between the alliance ball corrals. All of the balls must be contained within the
ROBOT’s 28” x 38” x 60” starting volume and must be clearly visible from outside the ROBOT. The
Head Referee will require that balls outside of the starting volume be removed. It is the responsibility of
the head referee to verify that this rule is satisfied prior to the start of the match.

So do they have to be totally visible, from all angles, which sounds a bit unreasonable, or should the referee just be able to see each ball from some point outside of the robot, and if that is so, what happens if because a bunch of balls are stacked together, a ball is hidden by other balls, and is thus not visible to the referee? Is there a penalty for that, I can’t find a penalty for failing to comply with this rule, so what exactly would they do in that situation.

#92

I don’t think that it will be penalized when 10 balls are piled in…you obviously can’t see through the balls…or it could be one of these “up to the discretion of the referee” deals…in which case they should have a set guideline to go by so there isn’t the confusion like there was last year.

#93

That is a good question, I would bring it up with Q&A and wait for their response. I would assume that they just want to make sure that before the 10 balls are loaded, the robot does not already contain extra balls for cheating purposes. So as long as the refs can easily see nothing is in the robot before and after matches, you should not have a problem. This is only an assumption, I would still contact Q&A about this.

GO 1403 and GOOD LUCK TO ALL 2006 FRC TEAMS!!!

#94

Just design for the rule. If the ref cant see them, like you said its up to their discretion, but i wouldnt take the chance.

#95

3.4.3 Ball CorralsA Ball Corral is located at the ends of the Alliance Station Wall to restrain any balls that enter through the Corner Goals. The Ball Corral covers a four-by-four foot area. The side walls of the Ball Corral are three feet tall and constructed of square aluminum tube and polycarbonate. The back wall of the Ball Corral is of similar construction, except it is only 20 inches tall to permit easy retrieval of balls from the interior of the corral.

**<G39>**Scoring Inerference - HUMAN PLAYERs, DRIVERs, or COACHes may not reach into a ball chute or in any way interfere with the ball counting system. Violations of this rule will result in DQ.

I’m I misinterpreting, or do these statements contradict each other? :confused:

#96

I think there are designated makrs on the ball chorals which would be “roped off”. Just dont reach into there which would interefere play. But you need to pick the balls out.

#97

I am believing that the velocity speed limit (12 m/s or 28.6 mph) would be the fastest the ball could travel through the center goal to actually be counted as a score by the automatic counting mechanism for their alliance.

-matt

#98

Actually, im guessing this is a true safety issue. Somewhere else in the rules it discusses that the speed limit ends up equaling a 30deg shot that goes 35’. Any farther than that and you risk shooting it into the audience.

Also keep in mind a ball is NOT Scored when it first enters the goal, its only after it goes down the chute.

#99

No.
The ball chute is the drop for the center goal and the ball corral is for the two corner goals. You may not interfere with the ball counting system for either.

This is incorrect. Per <S02>, the velocity at which the ball exits the muzzle(your robot) may not excede 12 m/s. This is considered in violation of <S01>, 10 point penatly and disabled for the remainder of the match.

Does anyone know if a human player picking up a ball from the corral happens to drop it across the counting system, will the other team get a point?

Wetzel

#100

Let’s put it this way - do you think the refs or the scoring system will be able to tell the difference between you dropping one over the ball counter or it being scoring by the opponent? Probably not. Since the scoring is automatic and immediate and sensor driven, I’m about 99.9% sure they are not going to take those points off because you have butterfingers (not you personally :slight_smile: ).

However, realize there are times of the game where that scoring side will not be “active” so nothing can be scored on that side. So just drop it then and you won’t have problems. :slight_smile:

Also, regarding netting around the field - I was told it’s been discussed and probably will be discussed more. Hopefully we get a decision on it prior to week 1.

#101

Wetzel, my guess is that you’re correct–or they may call an “interference” penalty for “interfering with the ball counting mechanism.”

–Petey

#102

The ball corral’s are quite deep, and the light bar for the counter system is almost all the way in the back (from the HP’s perspective), so while possible, the ramps may be steep enough that a dropped ball will fall below the light bar, and bounce to the bottom, thus not interfering at all.

#103

Is it really an interference though? You’d be helping the opponent. They talk about reaching into the ball chute to interfere with it, but not really the corral. Besides, how do they assume an interference (intentional implied) if a ball slips out of your hand onto the lighted panel, or if you have so many in there, one bounces enough back up the inside ramp over the panel again?

How about this question?

  • Is it legal to score for your opponent (since it’s encouraged) by dropping the ball on the lighted panel?

I suppose No. Reading G05 again, it says once a ball is scored for an alliance, it cannot score again until it’s re-entered on the field.

So the real question might be - how do they prohibit or rather, assess an accidental droppage or roll of a ball that might get counted on the light panel again while still in the corral? I don’t see a penalty (besides interference) for that kind of thing on the HP or a means to subtract those points. DQ for interference call in this case seems harsh for a true accident. Good one for the Q/A!!

I guess I sorta take back my initial thought 2 posts ago.

#104

My team has a question…

Before game play, in the beginning, does each team in the alliance have a choice on placement on the field? like on red side, middle, or blue side? or is it at random??

thanks.

#105

[quote=<G10>] Starting Positions - At the beginning of a match, the three alliance ROBOTs must be placed inside one of the three 5’ x 5’ robot starting zones located at mid-field to the right of the DRIVER’s station and not
touching the tape boundaries. It is the responsibility of the head referee to verify that this rule is satisfied prior to the start of the match. The match will not be started until all robots are in the starting position.[/quote]

Emphasis mine. They have left it up to the alliance to figure out who goes where.

Wetzel

#106

Yeah for field placement, it sounds like it will be done like last year’s, but it will be a little more interesting this year since autonomous programs will probably be very similar this year. Something to keep in mind when programming :slight_smile:
As for the ball counting, I’m sure there will be an official watching every single chute and corner. Officials have to watch for robots crossing the line in the corner zones, so they must also have to keep on eye on ball count. I know I wouldn’t like to do that, but hey, it has to be done.

#107

orginally posted by AmyPrib Is it legal to score for your opponent (since it’s encouraged) by dropping the ball on the lighted panel?

yes, you can score for your opposing alliance, if you deem it necessary. this could be advantageous because your team’s Ranking Points are based upon the score of your opponents score.

#108

Rule Clarification?

<S03> Shooter mechanism must remain inside the ROBOT. - Any mechanism used to throw balls must be contained within the original 28" x 38" x 60" starting envelope of the ROBOT and must be shielded such that the mechanism cannot make contact with other ROBOTs. A ROBOT that violates this rule will be considered unsafe per <S01>

Does the shooter mechanism include the “muzzle”? This would mean that a turret would have to have a short barrel. Any Thoughts?

#109

Team 1188 Oaktown Crewz :smiley: has a few questions relating to the rules so if anyone could answer them it would be great.

  1. GR13: Do you have to have clear sides so the balls are visible or are holes allowed?
  2. Can you at any time go on your opponents ramp?
  3. Can we use air pressurizers with pistons or would that be counted as making our own pneumatics?

thanks guys
-melissa :smiley:

#110

Yes, but remember to keep one robot back while you are on offense.

Wetzel