Here is YET ANOTHER reason why this thread is a bad idea:
Perceptions MATTER!
I believe that FIRST has used a good encryption scheme – good enough that noboby will get to the data before it is worthless to get to.
I understand that, but my MOM wouldn’t (unless she asked her son).
My Mom would think, “Hey, I don’t know anything about this whole encryption business, but here are these hacker guys saying they can crack the code in minutes, they are probably wrong, but they just might be right, I can’t tell.”
This is a reasonable thing for a lot of people to think – even people associated with FIRST who are more techinically savy than my Mom, but still don’t appreciate the implications of the difficulty of factoring large integers.
If enough people believe that FIRST’s secrecy has been compromised and that the game is fixed or rigged or whatever, this is not good for FIRST.
In the absense of more reasonable folks (Dave Lavery, et. al.) telling people the real deal, I honestly believe that FIRST’s reputation would have been damaged by all this talk of how easy it will be to crack the code.
Bottom line: FIRST is really important to me (and a lot of others) and we don’t like it when WE have to take steps to do “damage control” so that THEY can “entertain” themselves.
After reading your post reacting to Swando’s post, I had the same reaction as you. I was a bit upset and since we have our team meeting today;Mr. Swando (yes, Swando is his last name), a 3 year veteran on our team, and I were going to have a little discussion.
However,
I read his previous post (post #13, I think) and subsequent posts and I think his statement was taken a little out of context. His previous post makes it clear were he stands on the “spirit of FIRST” issue. His post you reacted to was a poor attempt to disagree regarding the rules of this forum. The Forum rules clearly state you can’t post about anything illegal and Mike was arguing that this discussion should be allowed based on the fact that cracking the FIRST code is not illegal. Editorial note: while I think it is not a good idea to try to crack the code because it is in no way GP, I do not think it is illegal in this instance; but I could be wrong.
I agree that I do not like this discussion very much, but the bottom line in my post is to defend my student Mike Swando.
if you do not heed any of the advice in this thread and decide to hack the password, dont make any info public. For the sake of you, your team, and the thread that holds first together, that would be 1000000000x worse than any thing you could ever say on these boards.
before we inflict an absolute moral code on all the FIRST students, I wonder… what would Dean Kamen do?
ask Dean sometime about how his company got started, a little bending of the rules at a place called The Museum of Natural History in Manhatten.
Ask him about the time he send his parents away on vacation (while he was a teenager) and what he did to his parents house while they were away! (or borrow a copy of the book “Code Name Ginger” and read the first chapter.
to hack open the PDF files before saturday, you would have to be a genius. The real issue here is, IF you were able to open them, what would you do with them before saturday?
I dont see anyone here advocating hacking the files to get an unfair advantage over other teams - what I see is the natural curiosity that all geeks and nerdy people possess - put a challenge infront of them, and the gears start spinning - nobody can stop those gears from spinning
Fortunately!
we will have a much greater and important challenge infront of us on saturday, and all this will be forgotten. But if by some chance someone does have the ability to decode the files before saturday, NSA and the FBI will both have standing job offers for you. :c)
If someone said, “Hey, I wonder what it would take to crack 128-bit encryption”, that is one thing, but to say “I wonder what it would take to crack the manual” is different. You’ve added a target to your ploy, and generally, the people that are targeted will take offense to such statements.
And if you don’t think that a target has been put on this initiative, just look at the subject of this thread. The subject is “The MANUAL will be cracked in…” (emphasis added); NOT “128-bit encryption can be cracked in…”
To make an analogy, let’s look at the two following statements:
“I wonder if I can make a 500 lb explosive.”
and
“I wonder if I can blow up the White House.”
Technically, these questions pose the same challenge - making a 500 lb explosive. However, ask the FBI or CIA if they would take these two statements differently, and I bet they would definitely answer “yes”. It doesn’t matter if the guy is really going to blow up the White House or he is just interested in the technical challenge of building a bomb - by using the 2nd statement, he is sure to be setting himself up for investigation and possible incarceration.
You can argue that the difference is just semantics or perception, which I would agree with. However, it’s pretty clear that in the non-geek world, perception is usually more important than reality.
There would be no moral dilemma, given the cracking activity began on Sunday, January 11th. I would be quite interested in seeing how long the cracking activity took, given it did not compromise the integrity of the FIRST robotics competition. This would be an intellectual challenge with no possible unfair advantages or repercussions.
However, this does not seem to be the goal. The explicit goal seems to be cracking the manual in advance of the key being given. There is no moral question about this. It is quite clear.
If anyone succeeds in this activity prior to kick-off, please do not post anything here, so as to not involve the rest of us in your activities.
Because everyone seems to be putting something in on this conversation…
I think that if anyone is seriously interested in cryptology, cryptography, and cryptanalysis, go pick up a copy of Applied Cryptography, Second Edition
by Bruce Schneier, rather than obviously maliciously trying to crack the encryption of the FIRST manual. Or even, as another alternative, encrypt something yourself, and try to decipher it.
Not that it’s realistic for anyone to be able to actually decipher the manual before Saturday, but just realize that just looking at a part of the manual would give you, whether you wanted it or not, a completely unfair advantage over all other teams in FIRST. Some people don’t mind taking whatever advantages they can get ahold on, no matter any code of ethics, but I think most people would actually like to have a level playing field for this season.
Not illegal? I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but Adobe is pretty protective of their PDF format and its encryption. I understand there are programs that allow ‘password recovery,’ but those are sold under the pretense you set the original password (or have a legally binding reason to obtain it otherwise), thus using one in this case would be quite illegal.
I agree this is being taken quite seriously when it probably shouldn’t be, but some of the replies simply don’t make any sense to me. I have to agree with Chris Hibner, when you set a target it’s a whole new precedent. If you want to discuss cryptography, don’t mention the manual and try to crack something else. Even discussing is enough to A) rouse suspicion or B) rouse blind sentiment.
This thread says a lot about the people who have posted in it. Andy Baker reminded us in a team meeting Tuesday that a lot of people read these forums (at current count as I post this there are 2,358 views of this thread), so remember that when you post these things
ok, thank you to Paul for already defending me on my lame attempt to speak, but i believe ill have a go at it myself, salvage a bit of my honor.
in the first place, my post did state that the thread was indeed against forum rules, but then i gave my contrasting opinion on the matter. Mr. Lavery most likely did not read my prior post, which is very understandable. i dont completely research the history of the posts when commenting. but if he had he may have seen that i do actually care for the spirit of FIRST and gracious professionalism. i have for the 2 prior years i have been on the team and i will continue; its truly what makes FIRST better than most organizations… for those who follow it.
the point i made was weak, however. that sort of cracking discussion is against forum rules and cracking the manual probably could be illegal (especially with the tight internet restrictions of today). i dont think it was completely fair to immediately lump me in with ‘hackers’ or blaring illegalities from the news world. nor do i think it was fair to categorize my behavior and the overall topic of this thread as ‘bestial behavior’ off field in a FIRST atmosphere. i think it was only the first post in this thread that referred to the actual methods of cracking the manual encryption.
i understand that Mr. Lavery did continue his discussion on a sort of tangent and i hope at least that not all of the discussion of illegal activity was aimed at me, most of his points i agree with. i dont believe that discussion of the ‘bending of rules’ is completely evil, nor deviant to a fantastic degree. part of growing up is exploring your boundaries and bending the rules a little bit, i believe that its part of life. personally im glad that the most awful thing found on this board is the pseudo-subversive use of mathematics and not the legality of bomb-making techniques.
i hope it isnt against forum rules to say ‘bomb-making techniques’.
again, weak arguments on my part, but i had to try to defend my honor.
This is really pointless anyway. Probably the only organization in the country that could crack that encryption by Saturday would be the NSA. FIRST knew what they were doing when they released this. They knew that there was a very slim chance of the PDF encryption being broken by an amateur hacker in a space of 2 days. So to anyone who wants to try and crack it, go ahead, it would be a good lesson in cryptography, but I’ll bet you money that it’ll take you more that 2 days to do it, so in the end, it wont be unfair to anyone.
I agree fully, however, there’s always a chance of an amature hacker breaking a cryptosystem… people can think up surprising ways around these things if dedicated.
all i have to say, is, if in the off chance, and i mean a major off chance, someone out there does crack it, keep it to yourselves, The kick off is a suprise i look forward to finding out ever year, AT KICK OFF, not on Cheifdelphi forums. it just doesnt make sense that anyone would want to acctually get the manual early, it takes all the fun out of the competition in my honest opinion
Okay…my $.02
FIRST is all about the frantic 6 weeks of building, the eager anticipation of Kickoff Day, the suprise when you find out what evil challenges Dean, Dave, and co. have planned for us, etc. I know people that are actually losing sleep about it. Now, to ruin this is not within the spirit of FIRST. It’s like sneakily unwrapping Christmas presents before it’s time. It ruins the feeling of suprise and excitement. To many of us, kickoff day is just like Christmas.
Now, for the obvious phrase: GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM
It is the intention of FIRST to set all teams on an even playing field with regards to the challenges. They go out of their way to make sure that no one team has an advantage over the other with regard to competability of the robot. The only thing that determines winners is the ingenuity and creativity of the team’s members. For those of you who may argue funding also determines this, may I point out that FIRST offers grants to teams, and also that it is nearly impossible, if you try hard enough, not to get enough sponsors to cover the money. If a team decides to crack the encryption, this goes against the whole idea of an even playing field. Teams should not try to UNFAIRLY gain an advantage over one another. The whole point of FIRST is to educate students and inspire them. FIRST is about teams helping one another out, not teams trying to gain an unfair advantage. FIRST is about “would you like to borrow a part because one of yours broke” or “can I help you with that,” and not about “haha I have the manual and you don’t” or “haha I have an advantage over you.”
If any of you try to break into the encrypted documents or otherwise cheat, you clearly do not belong in the FIRST program.
That’s true, someone just mashing their keyboard and pressing enter could break the code. It would be really cool if they developed a program that checked in with the FIRST server and made the document time released. That would make it almost impossible to break it.
Taking what I have learned from my team’s mentors, and teachers, a student that is a member of FIRST is placed to a higher standard than others. He, or she, is expected to not do just what is right by society, but what is right morally, they are susposted to take on a responsability that is not expected, but choosen by them. And in taking this extra responsability, you must be accountable to it. While cracking into the manuals may give you an edge, no matter how small, do you think your team mates and mentors would be overjoyed and proud you did such a thing, or ashamed that they failed you, for not instilling a since of what is morally right and wrong. So to the members of 384 at least, let’s not let down our sponsors, mentors, teachers, and Chainsaw. I also hope to all the others, that you will do the same for those who make your team happen.
Not that I’m saying the DMCA should be done away with, but this is yet another example of how it is stifling technological development in the most advanced country in the world and the sole superpower. I mean, if the government is going to hinder technology, it should think of the impact it will have on the rest of the world. Unfortunately, where America goes, the world follows.
I thought I’d add my comment just because a couple team memebers / mentor have suggested that I will be trying to break the darn thing. I don’t think anyone was seriously, but still. I want the world to know I am one of the most (like all of us) avid FIRSTers out there, and I would never even BEGIN to actually consider attempting it. I will lash out in great rage at anyone that tries it. I look down upon anyone that suggests it as a mental challenge or game. Anyone that thinks they’d like a copy of the cracked manual (if it happened before Saturday, which I highly doubt) gets a very sad, very angry frown from me. All right, I’m done ranting. Peace.
