The math of the cans...

FIRST General Forum
#41

I’m not sure what you mean, but it is pretty clear that this is the year the rich get richer and the middle of the road teams have no way to differentiate themselves.

Look at 148 as an example. They will potentially empty the human loading stations entirely. That would be 3 stacks, with noodles and cans, and 2 stacks with no noodles/cans and 34 points in auton. Total of 184 points by themselves (plus coop points, if they do it themselves).

An average robot probably can’t even create a 6 stack or takes the entire match to do so. Let’s be charitable and say you could make a 6 stack and a 3 stack. That’s only 18 points without someone getting cans off the step to cap with (which assumes someone other than 148 can cap cans). 18 points isn’t trivial, but its 10% that of 148.

To be fair, even elite robots will fail to make 5 6 stacks on their own, so the bar isn’t quite that high. But the overall contribution of the average team will still be minimal, compared to last year where you absolutely needed them to contribute in order to get high scores.

The only way a middle of the road team could have differentiated themselves was with a multi recycling can autonomous grabber…but the problem is the elite teams will all do it faster/better than those middle of the road teams do, leading to the middle of the road 2 (or 4) RC grabber robot being useless once lined up against the elite team with their 2 or 4 RC grabber robot.

#42

In 2011, at least 1st and 4th was worth 5 more points than 2nd and 3rd. Second doesn’t matter at all this year.

#43

Have you seen how long it takes 148 to stack 6 + RC+ noodle? (I saw a lot of clips of it driving around with 6 loaded which many bots can do) Remember theroretical scores are just that until duplicated in action under game conditions in 135 seconds. Its easy to be enamored/wowed with glossy reveal videos…lets see it in action first. It takes TIME to build any stack (even at HP station) and many of these robots need perfection to build those stacks in the first place.

Potentially empty the HP station is just that… potential not necessarily reality…our bot could potentially score all landfill totes doesn’t prove anything. I think 148 will be solid but also rely to a certain extent on decent alliance players or they will fail it they expect to “do it all” and waltz into the Championship Finals.

I see a shakeup this year at the Top…not a predictable as in past do to variability in game conditions. Many robots are very similar in design and that makes it difficult for many to separate including powerhouse teams.

#44

For those of us that weren’t involved in FRC back then, what did they do that was so great?

#45

Navigated to the platform and mechanically locked themselves in position to roll all the balls returned into play back into the goal.

#46

I already said not all elite teams will be able to do what I laid out in that example…but they will still generate a vastly higher amount of points than the average team does. We shall find out how many 148 does this weekend. There’s no reason they aren’t physically capable of doing 3-4…and the 4th/5th are really irrelevant without the extra RCs (only 12 pts ea).

The latter point about perfection to build stacks is far more applicable to the average team than the elite team, which makes it more likely that the average robot will contribute even less.

#47

They did it so smoothly that it looks like that’s what was supposed to happen. You have to watch another match from that year to appreciate it.

#48

This was not something that was easy to do within the framework of the rules that year, either.

#49

The can grabber arms race is going to be very interesting. I think that the middle containers stand a good chance of being broken during Einstein. You have the vertical surface of the step and the vertical surface of the totes to provide an unmovable plane to anchor your robot from going forward.

Clever teams will build mechanisms which cannot physically let the containers go across the step. When two of these teams are against each other, bad things may happen to containers and robots.

#50

I hope that one match, 2 robots dont let go of the bins they are both holding and rely on the other 2 robots on their team to outstack the other, or better yet, it end in a tie.

#51

Lot of interesting things have been said in this thread. In my opinion getting the cans is important but utilizing them is more important. If you are on a team where you are the only robot that can stack cans with the reveals I have seen I don’t see anyone needing more then 3 cans on their own. The game piece choice this year was really interesting in the fact that it creates so much clutter. If you pull the cans first what do you do with em? There isn’t really any place you can put them where they are completely out of the way because the corners are filled with totes. As impressive as step can autos are going to be I wonder if they are actually going to interfere with the scoring ability of teams. I mean if you pull 4 bins to the ground in auto they take up a lot of space.

#52

The vertical surface of the totes is anything but unmovable when speaking of a tug-of-war over the RCs. It also risks violating G24 (emphasis mine):

G24 ROBOTS may not cause TOTES, RECYCLING CONTAINERS, and/or LITTER to completely transfer from their side of the FIELD, or from the STEP, onto the opposite side of the FIELD.

The vertical surface of the step is only 6" tall, and the RCs start above this. There isn’t really a solid way to anchor to this - especially as only the very center of the step is accessible, and you can’t be there at the start of the match, due to: G7©:

G7 When placed on the FIELD for a MATCH, each ROBOT must be:
C. completely outside of their AUTO ZONE and LANDFILL ZONE.

#53

Absolutely. If neither you nor your alliance partners can score them, it’s only marginally beneficial by pulling down averages all around. Of course, if you grab 3 or 4, there are auto points.

#54

I think this will be a very interesting predicament in eliminations. Sort of like playing chicken of who lets go first. If you let go first, you give the other alliance the containers. But if both of you hang on, you both fall off the edge so to speak since both of your alliances were only scoring with 2 robots vs the others. How long a team holds on will depend greatly as to whether they need those containers for their offense to be strong enough to move on.

#55

Now there’s a Prisoner’s Dilemma. Any chance that each alliance can trust the other to let go of two and take the other two?

#56

Nobody stopped 469 in autonomous on Einstein.
469 didn’t win Einstein.

Even with an overwhelming strategy, you still have to execute. Getting the cans alone is not a chokehold strategy.

#57

I think it will have to come down to who did their research on the other team, as well.

Looking at the average score per robot of the robots in the match not stuck holding onto the bins, does your two out stack the other 2?

If both teams are somewhat equal in scoring capability, allowing each team two of the bins is the same as not allowing any team any of the bins result wise to my understanding.

That would be something. You are on einstein, and your only role is to not let go of the bins you grab in autonomous.

#58

The problem is that logic only works in the finals of a divison, regional/district, or Einstein. If you are playing 2v2, you are actually playing 2v2v3v3v3v3v3v3 since you need the top half highest average score to advance. Giving containers up first will not only make the team your playing against stronger but also reduce your own average depending on how much time is left and how many stacks can be made by the other 2 on your alliance.

#59

meanwhile not knocking any items off the step onto the other side, or going over yourself! Other things being equal (which they never are), this battle will go to a horizontal 'bot (CoG as low and farthest from the step, while pushing against it). Maybe someone without wheels, or totally retractable ones. Actually, it will more likely go to an alliance that isn’t on the field right now.

#60

Interesting idea that could benefit the game, but it would also have created a ref quagmire. With the speeds that teams would attempt to engage and disengage with the containers (not to mention the results of containers and gravity afterwards), it would be awfully dicey in determining if a team was only touching one container at a time.