The Rest Of The Best

FIRST General Forum
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FIRST Community, we have a problem! Some very, very great and inspirational robots will not be attending Championships in 2012 and these robots should be at Championships. Right?

Please allow me to preface this post by professing that I believe Championships should be open to every team that has a desire and will to attend. Although I’ve thought this for years as demonstrated by this post, I understand and respect FIRST’s decision to restrict the team participation. I also believe that much of the inspiration in FRC comes from the robots and that it is very important that a vast majority of the best robots attend the FIRST Championships. Now that we have reached the critical mass where the wait list for Championships is not cleared every year, I believe it is time to adjust the qualification criteria to attend Championships. Although I’ve thought of a zillion different ways to get the “Rest of the Best” robots to Championships, I believe there is a very, very simple solution that will get the vast majority of the Rest-of-the-Best to Championships. I propose that

The top 3 seeded teams from each regional qualify for Championships.

And I propose FIRST implements this proposal this year by slightly expanding the field to accommodate the Rest-Of-The-Best. Yep, you can quickly dub this the 177 or 2168 rule. Although, we’ve been discussing a rule like this for years as a balance to the number one alliance not getting the 1st and 2nd picks then the next alliance getting the 3rd and 4th, and so on, it has been on the back burner because the wait list for Championship was mostly cleared; but now, since this is not the case, it is time to take action … NOW! Now because the FIRST Community has a strong desire to see these great robots at Championships. Now because we have ignored this issue for years. Now because it is the right thing to do. Now because we must not wait until tomorrow for something that should be done today.

I will let the number crunchers in the crowd determine how many extra slots we would need at Championships but I don’t believe it would be that many simply because the number 1, 2, or 3 seed often wins the regional along with teams that attend multiple regionals often seeding in the top 3 multiple times. After this analysis, we may find that the top 4 seeded teams should qualify for Championships.

It will not take you long to find that this is self-serving because 118 has seeded high at two regionals and has not qualified for Championships yet. Also, it will not take you long to find that I’m very fiery when it comes to the fact that the Robonauts should not participate in Championships unless we win “on the field”, which includes the fields of Chairman’s and Engineering Inspiration. Trust me, we will be trying our best to win at Lone Star this week.

What do you think?,
Lucien

P.S. And for the record, here is one of the more creative proposals I’ve ever heard on this subject.

The top 4 alliance captains from each regional qualify for Championships.

This proposal has two effects, it gets most of the Rest-of-the-Best qualified for Championships AND makes it more difficult for a 2, 3, or 4 seed to accept a pick because they may be costing themselves a spot at Championships; this helps discourage super alliances … one step further to parity than serpentine picking has taken us. For this same record, I’m not a big fan of the current picking process now that Championships has truly become a win-or-stay-at-home-wishing-you-were-there event.

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I disagree with this method but not the idea behind it, I want all the best team’s and robots to be at championship to make it a true championship. I love 177 and 2168 and would love for them to both be at championship however with this rule you remove a huge part of the regional competition. If you are a #1 or 2 seed and you know you have already qualified for championships by being that seed you won’t strive for that regional victory. Going to championship isn’t just about how good you are, it’s a reward for having won and I think expanding the qualification for it would change what it means to make it.

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I still believe that the current format has got it right.

We thought we had an excellent robot in 2007, elimination worthy also. However, the best we did was regional finalist losing to team 25, 103 and xxxx that year in NJ. Then we went to Vegas, sitting next to the Poofs being told we were going to be picked by them and 1425. Right before that pick, a rookie team chose us.

Those are the breaks and you still have 1 more regional to go.
See you at Lone Star this weekend.:slight_smile:

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While I agree that there are often many very good teams with very good robots that miss out on champs, I disagree with your method of solving the problem at hand. I would cite this year and 2010 as prime examples, in that those years more than any other the seeding algorithm has allowed for relatively mediocre teams to seed highly. It can not simply be resolved by saying the top four seeded teams go because that does not inherently prove they are the four best teams at that event. The process of seeding is too flawed to say that definitively.

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In 2010, 294 qualified for Champs as the ~17th pick. Then we seeded first on Newton and won it all.

I will be the first to admit that the robots at Champs should be better, but your suggestion does not do that. Better, I think, would be to allow the 2nd place alliance in as well, or at least a part of that alliance.

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Aloha,
We ended up seeding 2nd in the Hawaii regional after putting in an average of 34 points per match (10 points in hybrid 17/17 times, only missed one shot the entire tournament, could easily bridge every time) but did not qualify for Worlds. We have an OPR rating over 28 which puts ranked 10th in the World right now at last check. I’m OK with not making it because I was not looking forward to raising $15,000 in four weeks to get my team there. I had to add credit limit to my credit card last year when we made it. Its also something I see every year when top scoring teams don’t make which is why you are suggesting this I guess. Having said all that, i would love to see how we’d do at worlds this year with this robot which is much better than the one that finished 14th but was knocked out in the quarters last year on Galileo. We could only afford our home regional this year so our season is done. The part about not knowing how well we could have done with such a good bot and not being able to show a couple of features that are very unique does have me a little disappointed. We certainly would have tried hard to make it if we had qualified under the system you are proposing. I know we could have added a lot to this years tournament.
One big problem I see is that the field is just about maxed out at Worlds already. In order to give everyone there a good experience with maximum matches I understand the need to limit who goes. If there was a way to add wildcards I know you could up the level of competition.

Plus look, we need all the help we can get to qualify over here…we have to go up against Glenn at 359 and the team at 368 every year and hope they don’t pick each other or its lights out!

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I wonder who picked you with the 14th pick (3rd seed alliance) that year.:wink:

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Someone who had a really good eye for potential! That robot totally transformed between San Diego and LA and Champs.

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Whoops, messed myself up thinking about 24-robot-long pick list and included half of the seeded teams by mistake. Anyway, that was pretty cool what we did there.

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I blame everyone else at that regional. How could they pass you folks up?
I do realize that your robot got much better at each subsequent event, including the epic 4 match finals in LA.
However, it was the key to all of us (with 100) winning it all.

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Thanks Glenn!

Back on topic.

It seems that FIRST is in the nebulous zone in which there are too many deserving teams but just not enough teams to convert the entire FIRST community to the District model such as in Michigan. This will often leave a lot of very deserving teams out of the Championships.

In my mind (and some other 294 mentors) getting enough of the community to the district format would be a desired approach. To me a district format allows the best teams qualify with points. As it is right now, going to three regional events at this point is very difficult for a lot of teams but may be their way to earn their way to champs.

We would love to see the district model attempted in So Cal. Though we do like going to new places! (Spokane next week!) The field in LA was 66 teams and I know we have more than that in the LA area. We are getting big enough to perhaps start thinking about it.

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Not sure if this is a good way to do it, but VEX tournaments have 3 tiers of participation based on team registration. At small events, only the Excellence Award winner goes to Worlds; at medium events, the champion alliance and two awards (Excellence and Design? Not positive) goes to Worlds; and at large events, the winning and finalist alliances plus the two awards goes to Worlds.

(Correct me if I’m wrong, VEX competitors.)

Perhaps we could stratify FIRST events into two tiers of 50- and 50+? That’d create a lot of logistical complications though, and I’m not entirely sure how teams dropping out/registering last minute would be handled.

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At least we could adopt a similar system to the Michigan ranking system except it is calculated nationally. There a lot of details to debate about. Without going much detail it would nice to have a running wait list of teams eligible to go to championship (excluding those that qualified already from awards and the regional champions). Teams can see their score and get a rough idea about their chances.

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If 177’s Einstein streak ends because they didn’t qualify… :frowning:

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177’s streak does not simply “end”. And ditto on the district model, LA is getting way too big and dense for even the two regionals in the area. Our team is made up of two high schools, and there is literally another team (330), on the same road, in between the 2. I think it’s rather silly that we only compete ~twice a year, considering how easy it should be to get a bunch of teams together here.

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Dont forget to add Hawaii teams to that mix…at least that is what has been talked about amongst the…:rolleyes:

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So here is the real problem: The team lottery and teams who just “buy” into worlds. If you wanted to make worlds just “the best of the best,” you would remove these ways into the competition. However, this is not what worlds and IMHO what FIRST is about. FIRST is about inspiration. Is it more important for upper level teams to be inspired by other upper level teams? Or is it more important for those smaller teams who can’t “win on the field” to see what can be done if you exploit the resources you have effectively? I know what my personal answer would.

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I like a points system for assigning priority to the teams on the wait list. Even without district models in place everywhere, it would still be possible to design a reasonably fair points system.

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The New York Yankees and The Detroit Red Wings may be two of the best franchises in their respective sports but occasionally they miss the playoffs.

I think the Championship should be a “Pure” Championship. Only Winners, Chairman’s, Rookie All-Star’s and HoF teams should attend in my opinion.

This is not meant to be a slight to EI winners, Original teams, or the winners from the previous years Championship. But the winner of the Super Bowl doesn’t get to automatically play in it next year.

52 Regionals (3 Winners, Chairman’s, Rookie All-Star) = 260 Teams
Michigan- Should Qualify 15 Teams (3 Regionals worth)
MAR- Should Qualify 15 Teams (3 Regionals worth)
HoF Teams- 15 Teams

305 Teams total (76 Teams in each division)

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If you like the sports analogy, then what of wild cards? Event winners and RCA winners are basically division winners. FIRST could allow other teams in based on some criteria, and they would be wild cards. Sometimes wild cards are a great thing, particularly when the same division has more than one great team in the same year. Analogous situations happen in FIRST regional competition.