The Triplet Challenge

if you have a mechanically complete robot that is theoretically able to fulfill the requirements, but is unable to because it isn’t programed or wired properly, then has it still solved the design challenge? i don’t think so. the challenge is to build a competitive robot, not to design a competitive concept.

i agree that collaboration should be a give and take relationship, that all parties involved should contribute (more or less) equally. obviously, this would be the ideal collaboration.

what everyone seems to miss about ‘the triplet challenge’ is that the copy part applies to a team that would not otherwise exist, if not for the collaboration. i expect this scenario will be rare, but if thats what it takes to get more people involved with FIRST then i’m for it. the question isn’t (or wasn’t) whether you were for two individual teams, or one team copying another, but rather if you want a new team to copy an existing one, or to* not exist at all*. wouldn’t you rather these students get a glimpse of FIRST, rather than sitting at home unaware, playing video games and watching TV?

if you can’t tell, im one of those that believe “if the students are inspired, its all good”

Well I am disappointed to see that this has turned into a Collaboration is good/bad debate.

While this idea may not be the best way to spread FIRST every where I know for a fact is would be the most effective way to do it in my community and in other area High schools. I would love to see more collaboration in RI especially if it means that more teams would be started. While I see no need for 71 and 254 to ever collaborate, I would love to see those teams work with other teams (I know 254 has done this) This helps to blur the line between the higher and lower level teams. If collaboration helps a team to come into existence or to jump up to a higher level then it is great, If it doesn’t then maybe it is not necessary. I know that Niagara FIRST is not the only collaboration but their actions and performance in the GTR finals, helping to fix the bot they were competing against. 1114 is definitely one of the premier teams in first and is clearly helping to bring their siblings to that level, It will not be long before you see the Niagara community support all three programs so they can split up and continue to spread first either by new collaborations or by other methods( I am sure Karthik will think of something). In the mean time I hope that all of the collaborations continue to thrive, I have never seen harm done due to a collaboration, for that reason I have nothing bad to say about this method to spread the FIRST message.

I am sorry if I came across rude, that was not my intent, I just noticed that the whole topic you had been defending the collaboration you had this year… now don’t get me wrong I personally don’t have a problem with collaborations, what I have a problem with is 10% of all robots at a regional being identical (as we saw at Waterloo) … I do not see this being the meaning of FIRST, nor inspirational (as I find showing others that you can be effective with an array of designs inspirational, and at the same time innovative), yes your robot was an amazing accomplishment, and I applaud you on your design, its just I don’t agree teams as developed as yourselves should have the need for carbon copied robots, I’m ok with it however if it is sharing individual designs with rookie teams or struggling teams. Sorry again.

David

Most everyone seems to be focusing on how collaboration affects the final inspiration of the students involved in such a partnership (the output of the process); however, few have commented on the effects different forms of collaboration have on the mentors (the “equipment” driving the process) and the team’s resources (the inputs of the process). Inspiration is neither a free nor an easy thing to create. Teams stepping outside of their comfort zone in an attempt to increase the amount of inspiration they generate is an even more difficult challenge. There are real costs associated with altering the inspiration process via collaboration – you cannot celebrate the end result of changing the outputs of the process (more inspiration) without also examining how the change affects the process inputs and the process itself. Before a team enters into a collaborative agreement with another, all sides must examine how the new partnership would affect EVERY aspect of their programs, from initial input resources to mentorship involvement to the final process output.

For simplicity’s sake (hopefully), I wish to describe a typical FIRST team as an “inspiration factory”. The final output product manufactured by this team factory is inspired students. The primary “assembly equipment” which drives the process used to manufacture this product is the team’s mentorship base. The raw materials that are fed into the “assembly equipment” are time, money, physical resources (tools, machine shop equipment, etc.), and impressionable students who have yet to be “processed” by the team (perhaps a bit of a scary image, but I think you all know what I am talking about).

Let’s start with a typical veteran FIRST team “factory”. It turns out high quality product every year, and the factory is running smoothly. In fact, it has received high marks and praise for its product from the manufacturing community; perhaps even the highest award granted by its peers. It has just the right amount of resource input to avoid “excessive inventory”, and its “assembly equipment” is properly maintained and never overworked past its capacity limit, so it keeps churning out the inspiration at high efficiency levels.

Suddenly, the plant manager has a bright idea. He is a noted philanthropist and thus has no designs to achieve personal gain by pushing his superior product on customers at the expense of others within his industry; instead, he wishes to augment the productivity of inspiration at other factories in his region so that the combined overall productivity of the regional factories is doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled. How does he choose to achieve this objective? Let’s examine two different pathways, one involving regional partners that are not nearly as productive, and another involving partners that are on par with the plant manager’s factory….


Pathway 1 (Collaboration between an established factory and those that are either new or not as productive)

The plant manager eagerly pushes through an agreement with several other factories to merge their resources and build their product at the manager’s facility. The other regional plant managers welcome this partnership with open arms, for they are either newcomers to this industry, or they have struggled with notable productivity and quality control issues as an independent manufacturer.

Upon merging the other factories’ “raw material inventory” and “assembly equipment” with his own, the plant manager quickly discovers that he is in for more of a challenge than he originally expected. The other factories’ assembly equipment, while demonstrating great promise, is far behind the efficiency and technology levels of the host plant’s equipment. The host factory spent years learning how to fine tune their equipment based upon experience and feedback from industry professionals. The other factories have not had that luxury. In addition, the other factories, while bringing equally large stores of impressionable students over to the host factory, were short on the raw materials of money and physical resources. These factors all threatened to upset the delicate balance of input management the plant manager had established over the years. What was he to do? How was he to achieve his objective of increased inspirational output and still account for the excess inventory? He could make 1 of 2 choices……

Decision 1

Not wanting to divert too much of his factory’s raw materials to improving the relatively inefficient assembly equipment brought into the factory by his partners, the plant manager chooses instead to let that equipment sit relatively idle as he ramps up the production demands of his original assembly equipment, which he trusts. He feeds most of the combined raw materials of the partnership into his equipment, effectively absorbing the additional material inventory recently brought into the factory. His assembly equipment is a well-oiled machine and is flexible to changes in process and in material input levels, and for a time, it compensates beautifully. Production is way up, and from the outside, the factory appears to be succeeding in its objectives. The manager only activates the additional equipment in limited situations where the process demands weren’t nearly as taxing. The other plant managers are thrilled by the accolades and awards they receive for being associated with this partnership, yet they see that their own assembly equipment and processes have not improved to anywhere near the same level as the host manager’s. Because of these facts, they have simultaneously grown too dependent upon the current level of success and too afraid that they do not possess the same level of ability as the host manager’s process to separate and return to their own factories.

Over time, as the original host factory equipment is continuously pushed to or past its capacity limit, this extra production demand slowly takes its toll. If the plant manager doesn’t recognize the imminent danger this poses to the entire factory, a severe meltdown could eventually occur. The host assembly equipment will never again function within the factory walls – it will take a new factory and a fresh new approach to restore the broken equipment to the level of excellence it once demonstrated - and the remaining partner managers’ equipment won’t be developed enough to compensate for the loss.

Decision 2

The plant manager recognizes that his own assembly equipment is a precious resource that should not be overtaxed by the new partnership. In fact, he feels he should invest more time and money upgrading the new, raw assembly equipment and bring it up to the quality and productivity of his own. All of the partnership’s raw materials would be more equally distributed among each piece of equipment, and all equipment would be run at nearly the same rate. While this path may not lead to the same immediate increase in output that would have been seen by following the path of Decision 1, and in fact, the productivity of his original equipment may actually decrease for a time, taking this direction would eventually lead to multiple pieces of high quality equipment running within his factory walls, all churning out the high-quality product his factory produced before the partnership took place. In fact, at this point, his partners may be so encouraged by their progress that they take their raw materials and equipment and go off on their own, perhaps even to propagate the same successful plan implemented by their host.


Pathway 2 (Collaboration between two factories that share the same high-quality levels of productivity)

I don’t have to go into nearly as much detail here. To achieve his goal of increased productivity throughout the industry, the plant manager contacts another plant manager from an equally successful factory. Both managers recognize that they do many, many things right, but each could stand to learn from the other and implement improvements to their process based upon the experiences of the other factory. The managers keep their factories distinct and separate, collaborating only to upgrade their assembly equipment and processes such that the quality and rate of production of their individual product is improved. Each manager gives proper credit to the other for their role in these shared improvements, and the two factories maintain lifelong connections so that they can continue to benefit from the partnership. They also agree to share their knowledge with other, less efficient factories that could use their assistance.


As you pursue “Pathway 1” collaborative partnerships, please do not overtax and ultimately break your “assembly equipment”, because without it, your raw materials will either be wasted or sit around as excess unused inventory, and they will never combine to form the finished product you seek. The key new point to all of this is that if you don’t take care of your mentor resources - if you try to overwork them too hard and too long and stretch them too thin - if you do not supplement them with an infusion of equally capable mentors from your new collaborative partners or alter your internal process to see that your new, inexperienced mentors have room to grow along with your students, then you will most likely place an undue amount of strain on your most experienced mentors, and the quality of the inspirational output of your program could suffer.

One factor of collaboration that may not have been taken into account by those encouraging it is its effects on the inspiration of those who are members of other teams. If nothing else, this thread has proved that there are many out there who believe collaboration provides an unfair advantage, whether or not it really does. This could easily lead to teams that were beaten by an alliance of collaborators feeling that they have been cheated. That can make it much more likely for these teams to drop out of FIRST.

This leads to the question: are the collaborating teams responsible for the damage their collaboration does to other teams they compete against, even if they didn’t intend it? The answer to this is definitely yes. Whether it is intentional or not, teams must take responsibility for their effects on others. If a collaboration of two teams (which has actually only grown FIRST by one team, because the collaboration founder was already participating) drives three teams out of FIRST the next year because they are convinced it isn’t fair, it is actually a net loss for the organization.

Finally, we must ask if collaborations have a moral (in the FIRST sense) right to exist if they do not cause a net gain in the number of teams. No! Collaborations that are non-profitable to the goals of the competition should not be allowed to remain collaborative. This will only hurt FIRST further.

Speaking as a student on another team, who has competed both against and with the triplets, they have added to my FIRST experience, not detracted from it.

My team played against 1114 and 1503 in the finals at Waterloo. In no way were we intimidated, or annoyed that we were playing against two of the same robots. We knew that it would be near-impossible to beat them, but it did not decrease our level of drive. If anything, it increased our will to win, being up against two of the best robots in FIRST. Naturally, I was disappointed when we lost, but in no way was it any different from losing to three different robots.

Their actions on the field are echoed off the field. I got an opportunity to talk to both mentors and students on the triplets, and our pit at Greater Toronto was beside 1503. Every time I talked to one of their members, I was so impressed with the level of inspiration I saw from their team. It has inspired me to try and raise my team to that level. They are amongst the nicest teams out there.

I believe that the level of enthusiasm amongst the students and mentors on the teams, and the behavior they have towards other teams, goes further then what their robots look like. In my humble opinion, teams who cannot be graciously professional and accept that other teams have different ways of inspiring their students, and choose to drop out because of it, never truly understood the values of FIRST in the first place.

This is the other side of the “bigger picture” that I tried to examine in my last post. If the collaboration is able to further inspire students even on other teams, then that is awsome! I have never personally been to a competition with the Triplets, and I honestly don’t know how I would react if I did. If their approach is able to inspire more students than it discourages, then more power to it. I by default took the negative side of this argument in my last post (it seemed that most people posting in this thread that weren’t Triplets themselves were against the Triplets), but there is also the positive.

I’m going to respond to some parts of this thread, not necessarily the original post, so disregard this if you think it is off-topic.

One thing I’ve seen a lot of criticism towards is the “Paint-by-Numbers” method of collaboration. To me it seems like this doesn’t even fit what collaboration actually means. Merriam Webster says that collaboration means “to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor.” If one team gives another plans to build a robot that the first team has designed, there is no working jointly and no intellectual work happening in this situation for the team receiving the plans. As far as I know, there have not been any instances of this happening, aside from (in my understanding) some virtual teams. If it did actually happen, as many people have stated before, I would be completely against it, as it takes all of the inspiration out of the FIRST experience.

So I keep reading through this thread, and I was brought back to Lindsay’s post and the posts of several people who have “met the triplets”

Everyone keeps saying how inspired the team is, how inspirational they are, etc… And maybe this goes off topic a little, but I would like to hear some stories of how this collaboration exactly “inspires” in a DIFFERENT way from normal teams (yes we are all driven to beat the best of the best, yes we all learn how to use tools we never would have touched outside FIRST, yes all of us gain confidence to meet others, to work with other teams, etc), so what is different??

I’m really glad that Lindsay, and the other students are “inspired” but from everything I have read (and no, I really haven’t met their students), I think many of us would benefit in knowing EXACTLY how they are inspired… give us some of the crazy/cool stories, show us how collaboration is different… why the teams chose to continue collaborating this year, what the rest of the world can gain from this… help us learn all this, instead of just bickering back and forth, “my way is better” “no my way is better”.

What I am looking for is the “above and beyond” stories… for example, we end up talking a lot with our janitors late at night… one of them got so involved he came to the local regional last year, and again this year… by the end of this year, he told us that he now wants to go back to college because of all he has seen with us! (Yes I know this has nothing to do with “collaboration”, but I’m looking for the stories that make the collaboration different from just “mentoring” rookie FIRST teams like most other teams do.)

I think these stories (because I’m sure they are there) would be incredibly effective in convincing this forum and many others of the true effectiveness of the collaboration… because I think everyone here is getting too defensive/offensive because we don’t know the real deal. Everyone keeps saying “well go talk to us/them in their pit” ok ok I get that, but its not going to stop this thread from escalating…

I’d like to explain why and how the Martian Twins happened this year.

History: Team 70 was a small veteran team operating out of Kettering University that was about to disband. Their mentor was retiring and there was nobody to take his place. Our team did not have mentor resources available to send there to keep the team going. We did, however, believe we could mentor two teams, 494 and 70, at the same location.

Mentoring: Our team leader and another mentor secured sponsorship for this second team. All the other mentor tasks that are mostly invisible to the students were done by shared mentor resources: registering for events, travel and accommodations, ordering team shirts, ordering raw materials and components, meeting with school administrators, book keeping, etc. All of these activities are essential, represent a lot of mentor time and energy, and can be done in bulk (for multiple teams) more efficiently. These aren’t’t tasks generally associated with providing the inspiration or recognition to our students.

Membership: Students from surrounding high schools were invited to join. Currently we have students from two other area schools and expect to have more in the future.

The student experience:
All activities for brainstorming the game and robot are done as a combined group.
Building of mock-ups and “mules” to prove out concepts is done jointly.
Construction of the robots, programming, etc. is done jointly in our modest shop, which is the balcony above the gym that we share with the cheer leading team.
All students participate in fund raising.
Each team has a distinct pit crew and drive team. Scouting is a collaborative effort.

The bottom line is this: Mentor resources are limited and burn-out is a real danger in FIRST. Collaboration was essential to keep this second team in existence. There simply were not mentor resources available to sustain it on its own. Nobody was cheated out of their inspiration or handed a Pre-built robot or a complete design, it was all done together. This project was not undertaken as part of our plan for Martian domination of planet Earth, but to the best we could with what we had to work with. I sincerely believe this was and will continue to be good for FIRST.

Jay

What Jay didn’t mention was that 494 and 70 stretched themselves even further by fronting team 1213 $4k in order for them to make the initial payment deadline. They went further yet to organize a raffle where the two teams worked together/separate to pay back the Martians’ kitty. Neither 70 nor 1213 would have been in the hunt this year without 494.

Maybe next year 1213 will wise up and ask to borrow Jay instead of the cash. :slight_smile:

I would like to give my 2 cents on this topic

The Triplet Challenge sounds like a fun and innovative way to get more students into FIRST and partake in an engineering competition. However, I believe that it would not happen for several reasons. One, it sounds boring to have a same design for 3 or 4 teams. I like it when I go to a competition and see how everyone has approach the game from a different angle. “Who did this?” and “How does the mechanism work?” are some of the questions that I asked myself when I looked at about 400 robots all season. Everyone has a different approach to the game and it is more interesting when you get to see how they will affect how the game piece is use. Second, it may be a disadvantage to teams that make one robot. 2-3 Teams that have the same robot design and are effective enough to get the job done can outlast any one robot team. Lastly, it causes more problems when it comes to paying for everything; you got the competition fee, and then everything else on the outside. You basically got to spend you whole entire pre-season doing sponsorship if you don’t have a corporate sponsor. As a mentor on Team 204, I am dealt the task of finding money with students for us to go to the competition and other matters. Now try doing not once, but twice. It is a difficult challenge. Do not get me wrong, we actually have looked into doing a “Niagara Triplet” kind of thing here in South Jersey, however it is a difficult challenge to try and get everyone on board.

Just giving a little feedback to CD.

Freddy raises a valid concern with respect to beginning a collaborative growth strategy similar to what was done with The Triplets. In a previous post, Karthik promised to make this the subject of a post-season paper. In the meantime I will outline what I believe are some prerequisite requirements based on our experiences. More to follow in the post-season.

Prerequisites for a NiagaraFIRST style collaboration:

  • Mentor consensus on the growth strategy.
  • An established, experienced, and capable base team.
  • Mentor diversity and single-point leaders – with mentors having different “lead” responsibilities for elements of the collaboration, as well a lead mentor that represents each school team’s interests.
  • A new team(s) whose teacher (and any new mentors) prefers to learn from an experienced team.
  • Acceptance that all teams will share resources and facilities. There must be a vision for how these resources or facilities can be shared so that everyone can be involved.
  • A common organizational framework for each team to facilitate communication and to keep the collaboration aligned.
  • Education and training materials for all aspects of the project delivered in the pre-season.
  • A web based bulletin board and forum for communication and information exchange.
  • A disciplined project management, scheduling, and review process for each team.
  • A weekly forum where all mentors gather to discuss progress, lessons learned, and improvement opportunities.

Sorry to rez a dead thread, but this has been bugging me for a few days. I originally made a post offering the evidence of 116’s history to support either side of the topic. The evidence itself, in many situations, at least how I originally presented it, seemed a bit biased against the need for sucess to sustain a team. I, however, forgot to include one very significant detail, that I remembered (and have no idea how I forgot in the first place), that presents another valid argument.
In 1999, 116 moved from South Lakes High School, to nearby Herndon High School for reasons of faculty support. South Lakes would have a “rookie” team in 1999 (even though 116 was much more of a rookie in terms of membership than the south lakes team. 116 retained it’s NASA sponsorship and almost all of the mentors at HHS though), but it would only last one year.
Sorry again for rezzing a dead thread, but this was buggin me and I couldn’t edit my old post for some reason :confused:

Well, it’s only been a couple of minutes since I made this post:

But, since I’ve already gotten a couple of IMs about it, I thought I should explain.

When the NiagaraFIRST collaboration was first conceived, after seeing the 60/254 collaboration in 2004, it was never planned to be a permanent solution. The purpose of the collaboration was to help develop two new rookie teams to the point where they could stand on their own two feet, as successful teams. After two years of mentoring by 1114, we feel that the groundwork has been laid for both 1503 & 1680 to go out on their own. Both teams have had the time to develop a solid base of resources. In fact, 1503 went out made a pretty big free agent signing. :stuck_out_tongue:

So, what does this mean for NiagaraFIRST? The NiagaraFIRST community still exists to help the teams of the region share resources. It’s just that this year, you won’t see three copies of the same robot. 1114 is going at it alone.

That being said, Team 1114 has helped start two new rookies teams this year. Team 2056 - Stoney Creek SS and Team 2166 - Appleby College. We will be mentoring both these teams, but again they will not have the same robot as us. Logistically, it’s just not feasible for us anymore. Although, I would expect many of the local teams to have similar drivebases, as we’ve made all our drawings from 2005 & 2006 public.

We look forward to an amazing season, and the further growth of FIRST in the Niagara region.

First off, congratulations and thank you for helping new teams!

As for not having the same robot, I believe that this is as it should be. The GDC works very, very hard to come up with a game where a rookie team using the basic elements in the KoP can come up with a good effective robot. With help and mentoring support from an experienced team, they can get that much more out of the experience but in the end, they will still be able to say “This is our 'bot!”

Good luck in 2007.

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599 - The RoboDox

I think that you understand how the triplet collaboration worked, All three teams put in alot of work on their robot and all of the teams certainly could say “this is my bot” This thread turned ugly quickly because people didn’t understand the concept of the collaboration. I know your intentions were good but I don’t think the triplet debate should continue, 1114 used the collaboration to start up 2 new teams both of whom this year will be competitive with out the collaboration, I am sure whatever they will be doing this year to assist the new teams will be equally effective. Hopefully this time there will be more focus on what it is they do rather than bashing them for the way they do it.

James

My team, Cyber Blue, is currently in the process of working towards a similar goal as suggested. Lack of interest caused a potentially all-girl team to never quite start. They would be the POWER team. We decided that the best way to get people interested was to build a second robot, similar to ours that they would be able to use over the summer at the IRI. What better way to promote FIRST, than to take a small group of people, give them a “loaner” persay, robot, and let them experience a FIRST competition for themselves?

All in all, a great way to promote all aspects of FIRST.

It would be cool if you didn’t quite finish that robot and had helped the new team finish it so they could gain some good hands on experience. They would also probably be more attached as it would be part theirs, not just a loaner…