This board is quiet-- so how bout this election?!?!?

FIRST General Forum
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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.

Posted on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST

So let’s not get into an argument about who should win and how shouldn’t–
But what does everyone think of the electoral college system vs. the popular vote?

If this is a true democracy-- shouldn’t what the PEOPLE say, go…?

And what kind of country would be have if it was led by a president who people don’t feel won the right?

And now to relate this to FIRST-- which canidate (if any) do you think has/had the best interest of the future of America in mind? There’s so much focus on things that don’t matter–
hey mr.president, instead of cutting the taxes or wasting our money, why don’t we start helping some kids go to college? start from ground up… let’s get our schools up-to-date books… let’s pay our teachers a little more for all their efforts… let’s make sure kids can read the high school diplomas they receive… let’s make college a little more affordable for the middle and lower classes of America… i worked hard in high school, made good grades, worked ALL the time and all my summers, and yes, I may not be able to attend college next semester-- why kind of world is this?

But then again-- the people vote and it’s not respected–

so what do all the other registered voters think?

(For the record-- I voted for Gore; I completely dislike Bush… but this electoral college has got to go.)

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/8/2000 2:04 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

For what it is worth, when George Bush lived at 1600 Penn. Ave., the National Champs & the Chairman’s Award Winners were invited to a very nice Whitehouse Reception.

The practice was not continued by the Clintons.

If ‘W’ squeaks past the 269 magic number, perhaps such visits will be re-instated.

Just a thought.

Joe J.

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Rochester Institute of Technology.

Posted on 11/8/2000 4:03 PM MST

In Reply to: For what it’s worth… posted by Joe Johnson on 11/8/2000 2:04 PM MST:

Well, I can’t speak for every year but I do know specifically that in 1996 (yes, when Bill Clinton was President), the National Championship winner was invited to the White House. FYI, that was the RIT and Edison Tech team that we are reforming right now. We’ve got pictures to prove it too. :slight_smile: The reception was led by Al Gore as Bill Clinton was not available. And, I’m sorry, if you pick a President based on whether or not you get invited to the White House, you’ve got to reevaluate your priorities.

Matt

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 11/8/2000 4:25 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: For what it’s worth… posted by Matt Leese on 11/8/2000 4:03 PM MST:

:And, I’m sorry, if you pick a President based on
:whether or not you get invited to the White House,
:you’ve got to reevaluate your priorities.

I totally have to agree with Matt on this one. This should NOT be a factor in selecting the leader of our country, even though I do see it as great recognition for FIRST. That said, I think that there are some loopholes in the Electoral College system (especially if Gore loses! sheesh…), but generally the system has worked…and for the most part people are just very very misinformed about the system, something that irks me to no end. (yeah, I’m in American Government and I worked on this election doing exit polls) And you know, I think I’m going to be quiet now b/c I’ve gotten into far too many political arguments today on only 2 hours of sleep =) So…go Gore (better than the others!) and I’m going to get some sleep before Florida comes through…

~lora

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/8/2000 8:36 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: For what it’s worth… posted by Lora Knepper on 11/8/2000 4:25 PM MST:

Matt and Lora,

I don’t believe that my initial message advocated support for FIRST as a reason for casting a vote, but rather was an after the fact assessment of some potential good that may flow to FIRST given one (slightly more probable at this point in time) potential outcome.

BUT…

I have devoted a significant fraction of my waking hours for the last 5 years advancing FIRST and it’s goals. I BELIEVE THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

To suggest that casting my vote based on whether I believe one candidate will support me or oppose me in this endevour is somehow out of bounds or silly, in my view, can only indicate how little sleep you folks must have had recently (slight sarcasm alert).

While I did not cast my vote on that basis, I suggest that this would have been a much more serious basis on which to make my decision than the basis that 99% of the population used. Even more important, I believe that this method of deciding which lever to pull would have, in fact, been a more serious issue than the issues that the candidates themselves urged me to use.

I really mean this. In my view, there is NO FIX for social security if the USA loses its tenuous grasp on its leading position in technology. There is NO FIX for the environmental problems (real or imaged) without mathmeticians, scientist, and engineers. There is NO FIX for our education system without the consumers (students and parents) demanding that the problems be fixed. And on and on…

FIRST, at its core, addresses these concerns more squarely than any of the proposals that any of the main stream candidates’ proposal.

For what it’s worth…

Joe J.

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/9/2000 6:21 AM MST

In Reply to: It’s worth more than you give me credit for… posted by Joe Johnson on 11/8/2000 8:36 PM MST:

From my message:

‘… I suggest that this would have been a much more serious basis on which to make my decision than the basis that 99% of the population used…’

When I get tired, I tend to overstate my case. While lying in bed just before dropping off, I mentally reviewed the pro’s & con’s of the message I had just submitted to the Forum. Thinking about it, I believe I made too broad a statement concerning the seriousness of the electorate. Where I said 99% above, I should have said ‘a clear majority.’ It doesn’t really change the main thrust of my message, but it will allow me to sleep better at nights.

So… I apologize to the voting populace.

Regards,

Joe J.

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Posted by Andy Baker.

Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/9/2000 6:43 AM MST

In Reply to: For what it’s worth… posted by Joe Johnson on 11/8/2000 2:04 PM MST:

From what I recall, both the Chairman’s Award winner and the National Champ. used to be invited to the White House.

We were not invited in '98 (45: National Champs), and Chief Delphi didn’t go in '97 (47: Chairman’s Award). So, the practice must’ve halted after '96.

I do remember that there were some folks from FIRST looking into getting us a visit in '98 (Vince?). About the same time that FIRST was inquiring about a visit to the White House, a scandal surfaced at the White House… it had something to do with interns and someone named Lewinsky. Hmmm… I wonder what ever bacame of that?!?

Our team was definitely excited about a possible trip to the White House and disappointed that it did not come through. I personally, would’ve been happy to visit the White House, but I would’ve had second thoughts about shaking Clinton’s hand.

Let’s hope that this old tradition gets put back in place with either Bush or Gore.

For what it’s worth… I hope that it is Bush.

Andy B.

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Posted by Matt Leese.

Other on team #73 from Edison Technical HS and Rochester Institute of Technology.

Posted on 11/8/2000 4:10 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

Why not increase spending on those things that help the middle class (i.e. college, etc.)? Well, first of all, I’d say that the federal government should not be involved in those things. The Constitution delegates all other powers that are not explicitly stated in the Constitution to the States. There’s no mention of college assistance in the Constitution (among other things). Second of all, why does the government take a part in this anyway? If the money that we saved from paying taxes were applied to a combination of paying for your own education and money could also be given to private scholarships. So maybe instead of giving everyone a ‘helping hand’ and wasting so much money on the bureaucracy of government, we instead leave it in the hands of the people. And yes, this theory does apply to many other candidates. BTW, if you think I’m a Bush supporter, you’d be wrong. Harry Browne and the Libertarian Party all the way! Sorry, you got me started there. And I apologize to our Canadian and Brazillian comrades as they have very little interst in this at all…

Matt who’s tired of the two-party system…

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/8/2000 8:05 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by Matt Leese on 11/8/2000 4:10 PM MST:

Have your read any Ayn Rand lately?

Altas Shrugged is perhaps the the most influential novel I have ever read.

Recommended.

Joe J.

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Other on team #459, , from University of Florida/Eastside High School and .

Posted on 11/8/2000 5:17 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

: If this is a true democracy-- shouldn’t what the PEOPLE say, go…?
This isn’t a TRUE democracy, a TRUE democracy was what the romans had, well, it’s the closest thing so far at least. A TRUE democracy is where the people govern themselves, we have a Representative democracy, where the people elect the officials which govern over them (well, for the most part, there was Ford, who hadn’t even been elected by one person)

: And what kind of country would be have if it was led by a president who people don’t feel won the right?
Well, that’s all relative, you are NEVER going to find a candidate which ALL of the people want, so you have to go with the Majority, however, in an election this close, it probably wont matter a whole lot who ends up winning, because since the country is so evenly divided, if the president elect doesn’t satisfy enough voters, he’ll lose in the next election, and unfortunately for us, these ARE career politicians, and their main concern is getting reelected, not creating efficient policy (that’s why I’m Nader all the way).

: And now to relate this to FIRST-- which canidate (if any) do you think has/had the best interest of the future of America in mind? There’s so much focus on things that don’t matter–
Which would that be? From the looks of it to me, the majority of the focus is on extremely important issues, nothing that I have seen is something that doesn’t matter.

: But then again-- the people vote and it’s not respected–
I completely disagree, if the politicians didn’t pay attention to the people’s vote, they would not be politicians at all, if they don’t at least respect our vote, then they do fear it

: so what do all the other registered voters think?
NADER!!!
and I agree on the electoral college DOES have to go.

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.

Posted on 11/9/2000 11:01 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by Jason Rudolph on 11/8/2000 5:17 PM MST:

Democracy: People make the decisions

Republic: People elect people to make the decisions for them

…point confirmed by anyone who watched West Wing Wednesday night… it’s within the typical realm of the American vocabulary to refer our system as a democracy, my fault…

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Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Other on team #1, ., from alumni of the juggernauts and …

Posted on 11/9/2000 3:00 PM MST

In Reply to: Point taken-- this is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy… posted by colleen on 11/9/2000 11:01 AM MST:

America…ahh, living under the myth that we are a democracy…

more like an oligarchy.
‘Government where power is in the hands of few.’

Is anything TRULY a democracy?
I wish my homelife was…
-Erin

p.s. ‘I invented pants.’ Gore is ahead by 341 in FLA…

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/9/2000 3:05 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Point taken-- this is a REPUBLIC, not a democracy… posted by Erin on 11/9/2000 3:00 PM MST:

: p.s. ‘I invented pants.’ Gore is ahead by 341 in FLA…

I believe you mean BEHIND by 341.

Joe J.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

Posted on 11/8/2000 7:46 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

Wow, great topic.
Even though I’m not a registered voter, I’m 17 and I’m pretty darn close, so I felt I had to watch this election closely, cause he’ll be in office when I do hit that magic number in June.
Personally, I would have voted for Gore…I have nothing against W, Jeb is the one that bothers me…it’s great to see them at Nats, but when the only comment that he can make upon meeting the kids in the media tent was that he was glad all the ‘Bush states’ were represented (A guy from Texas, a guy from FL, and me, from CT…though we’re more a Lieberman-state than Bush-country anymore).
Though that doesnt mean Im choosing Gore for the ‘lesser of two evils’…I think he’s the most competent, thats all…and Lieberman is a large plus.
About the electoral college thingy, its worked so far, but maybe it is time for a re-vamping. But, its not for me to decide.
Ok, I’m done for now…

-Jess Boucher #237

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Posted by Erin.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Other on team #1, ., from alumni of the juggernauts and …

Posted on 11/8/2000 8:27 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE

hmm…
back in the days of the congressional congress, the electoral college may or may not have made a fair and accurate representation of the people and how they voted. BUT ITS THE NEXT MILLENIUM HERE, and if we can alter amendments, then why can we not alter this little problem we know at the electoral college?

Its completely ridiculous that the popular vote doesn’t win.

-Erin

p.s. GLAD TO HAVE MY PASSWORD BACK…WAS LOST WITHOUT IT

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Posted by Jay.

Student on team #173, RAGE, from RHS and UTRC.

Posted on 11/9/2000 4:33 PM MST

In Reply to: This board is quiet-- so how bout this election??? posted by colleen on 11/8/2000 1:53 PM MST:

‘Rabbi Richard Yellin said that when it dawned on several of his congregants that they might have unwittingly voted for Buchanan, ‘people started crying.’ Buchanan’s remarks about World War II and the Middle East have been criticized by many Jews as anti-Semitic.’… we’re talking over 19,000 votes that have been disqualified… meaning gore won in reality, but who knows now. that must really feel awful, to know that your mistake has effected the entire country. basically i think after all this, bush will be the winner, legally. but isn’t the law supposed to be an expression of the will of the people…?

p.s. florida used the same system in '96. they had aprox. 15,000 mistakes… add in a big voter increase and bingo: you have a disaster that’s just been waiting to happen for the past 4 years.

p.p.s. buchanan was just on tv, he said the ballot was confusing and he doesn’t feel right about taking gore’s votes…

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Posted by Jessica Boucher.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

Posted on 11/10/2000 9:27 AM MST

In Reply to: i really feel sorry for florida… posted by Jay on 11/9/2000 4:33 PM MST:

I agree, I feel really bad for FL too…and it’s kinda funny, that the only state that is having problems is the one who W’s brother is governor of.
By the way, if you have the chance, don’t chew out your local Floridian friend about this all…luckily he took it the right way, but I can see where there can be some confustion.

: p.s. florida used the same system in '96. they had aprox. 15,000 mistakes… add in a big voter increase and bingo: you have a disaster that’s just been waiting to happen for the past 4 years.

Well, thats because FL has one of the lowest voter turnouts in the country…more of the less populated counties feel that whoever the president is does not affect them at all…and would rather spend their energy pushing their favorite local candidate, because the local candidate will help them more than the president.
(That was all from a NY Times article a month back)
Anyway, due to lower turnout, they don’t feel that they need to spend the money on fancy mechanized booths like the ones where I am.

: p.p.s. buchanan was just on tv, he said the ballot was confusing and he doesn’t feel right about taking gore’s votes…
Poor Buchanan…at least he’s being civil about this…I think the quote that has aggravated me the most throughout all of this was the one made by one of Bush’s lawyers who answered ‘Well, it’s not like the US is like other countries that revotes and manipulates the data until they get the results they want’…grrrr.

Done venting for today,
-Jess Boucher #237

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Other on team #459, , from University of Florida/Eastside High School and .

Posted on 11/10/2000 2:05 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: i really feel sorry for florida… posted by Jessica Boucher on 11/10/2000 9:27 AM MST:

I don’t know if anyone else saw it last night, but Michael Moore was on the daily show, and he made a very funny comment (well, at least I think so). He said we should call the Secretary General of the UN, Koffi Annon, and have him send election supervisors to the US to make sure everything goes right. Now, it seems funny, but if you think about it, that is EXACTLY what we do all the time to other countries, so why can’t it happen to us??? In fact, I do believe that Fidel Castro has already said that he would send advisors to overlook a revote…

Jason

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.

Posted on 11/10/2000 11:44 AM MST

In Reply to: i really feel sorry for florida… posted by Jay on 11/9/2000 4:33 PM MST:

I respect Buchanan for his comments-- it’s obvious they can’t assume that ALL those people were trying to vote for Gore, but even when the candidate himself says he shouldn’t have that many votes, there’s a major issue to be solved…

Low voter turnout (from Jess’ post) unfortunately should not mean that the people who do vote shouldn’t be counted… i mean 19,000 people went to the polls and are not being counted… yes, some ballots were double marked-- no, those SHOULD NOT be counted… but many votes were thrown out because people (most often older) circled their choice rather than punched a hole… since Florida could not count those by machine, they did not count them at all…

If only certain people’s votes are going to matter, we have issues. People double-voting on a ballot is inexcusable… but 19,000 people weren’t that stupid… and the 1000’s of people who tried voting for Gore but the hole’s didn’t line up desire to recast their vote as well… Yeah, everyone wants to end this… but people’s say in their government should not be compromised because the higher-ups don’t feel like spending the time and money–

I would say the only fair way to solve Florida would be allow those people who voted in the first election (names are checked and kept-- or should be) to recast their votes… if they change them, that’s their choice… but really… and when those votes come in (or even the ones now) they should be counted BY HAND. Sending a beam of light through a punched hole is not very efficient… and has been disgarded by many other states (including mine of massachusetts) because of it’s inefficiency in reading clearly punched ballots…

And before the next election-- a UNIVERSAL method of voting has to be made and adopted by every county in every state of this nation… if we are all using the same machines and processes, at least the margin of error is the same all around and no one would be at an advantage or disadvantage…

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 11/10/2000 12:20 PM MST

In Reply to: Solving this mess posted by colleen on 11/10/2000 11:44 AM MST:

Clearly we cannot turn back time in order to make all those who, by some measures, deserve to revote forget the past few days so that they would vote the way they would have voted on Nov. 7th.

The fact that they already know the outcome of most of the country and the closeness of the tallies would clearly have an unfair impact on voting patterns.

I am not in favor of any revote.

BUT… If ANYONE gets to revote, the entire country should revote. IMHO.

Joe J.