Thoughts on Double Elimination for FRC

So, with the double eliminations underway at Chezy Champs, what were your thoughts compared to a normal best-of-three structure?

Something I would like to add: Please preface your post by indicating if you were:

A drive/strategy team member
A volunteer
A spectator at the venue
A spectator on twitch
None of the above (didn’t watch the event)
Other (explain)

This will hopefully add some insight into how different people experienced the event.


Red cards suck even more :sob:


I mean, getting a red card in the second eliminations match after losing the first would have had the same effect in the old system too.


Yeah the result is same it just feels worse :disappointed:



I like the new format because

  1. you don’t lose to the same twice. This lets alliance 8 have a chance to go deeper
  2. regional wildcards rely more on skill than which side if the draw you land on. (I think that going deeper has a similar effect in districts where deeper means more points).

I don’t like that there are more delays in a row.
I think it is 4-5 field timeouts in a row (including finals). That’s a lot of waiting and I hope events fill it well.

Edit: it is 3-4 field timeouts in a row. I forgot about the winners bracket. That’s only one more than the old way.


As a volunteer:

  • Better alliances tend to go farther
  • There is no margin for mistakes or bad luck

Is the pro worth the con? Hard to say. I think I slightly prefer DE over BoT, but I would prefer a better designed system that doesn’t punish a single bad match nearly as harshly.


As a spectator I don’t really like it, since it makes it much less forgiving if you have an alliance partner break.


I’ve been very casually following (stream is muted on one of 5 screens). Maybe I’ll eventually memorize which match # is which, but having “Playoff match 11” on the scoreboard isn’t super helpful. Under the previous system, you know which round of the playoffs and the status of the best of 3 round. Maybe there is a system that includes if the match is in the winners or losers bracket?


The backup changes should help remedy that - there’s no longer any penalty for calling in a backup robot if you have a broken partner.

Yeah we’ve already taken a note that editing the scoreboard and match display to show if upper or lower bracket would make things more clear.


Chezy GA here. I also have no idea which match is going on, and I’m announcing them.


As a spectator:
The impact of red cards and losses is definitely felt more keenly. Teams also don’t have a chance to mix up their strategy if they lose once, so it does make elims scouting that much more important to go into matches more prepared. I do like that it feels like the lower alliances have more chances to go deeper even with those caveats, so for that reason alone I see it as an absolute win.

I can imagine the predictable number of matches must be awesome for planning of the venue. Lots of delays here though, although I can’t judge if it’s a normal amount for an event.


I definitely dislike that having a bad match can be much worse. But the fact that a worse team can go further is awesome. I think this set up leads to more exiting matches more often.


As a Twitch Stream Spectator:

I haven’t had a hard time following which match is which, but I think that’s hugely due to RSN’s wonderful commentary and having the bracket constantly shown.

A benefit that I noticed was that this makes competition end times much more predictable. In a traditional format, there can be 14 - 21 matches. In this format, there can be 15 - 16 matches. This seems like a benefit to those trying to nail down return times for parents.

This format certainly incentivizes not losing over winning. That may seem to be the same thing, but what it means is consistent teams will benefit from double elimination. You can’t keep losing one of your three matches.

I’ve enjoyed watching different teams play each other, but we are missing a little bit of that redemption tension that occurs when you go to a third match. I think weaker alliance playing more makes up for it from an inspirational perspective.


As a stream spectator:

If FRC switches to DE, this will be the component of BoT that I will miss most.

I don’t know if this is just me, but the tournament seems to have taken longer overall, even if it does end at a more defined time.
I am also missing the changes in strategy that are present when alliances play each other in BoT.
I am unsure if DE is fairer/easier for lower seeds to advance. That remains to be seen.


As a drive coach at Chezy I thought DE was pretty awesome. We went 2-2 and lost in round 2 and round 4 (to the 1 and 2 alliances).

We saw 4 different teams in our 4 rounds and we on 3310 thought that was pretty cool.

Another benefit was that 6 alliances got at least one win, which is pretty inspirational for teams just starting out in FRC or teams that are normally 2 and done in the playoffs.

All in all, I think this is a great change with some cleaning up of the back to back matches and clarity around the time available between those matches.


Presumably, main season events will be able to wrap up faster by having awards occur during the long match breaks.


As someone who was out and about today and didn’t watch the stream at all:

TBA and FRC-Events need to make a Double Elim bracket for quick parsing event results afterwards


Like this?


I didn’t realize you could hover over the “Unknown” to get the teams. Instead of “Unknown” the teams should just be listed (alliance number as well).