Thoughts on Nationals

FIRST General Forum
#2

Posted by Jason Rudolph at 04/08/2001 9:03 PM EST

Coach on team #459, Rampage, from University of Florida/Eastside High School and Adaptive Equipment.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

First of all, the water was ridiculous. I saw the cables running into distro boxes sitting under three inches of water. Unfortunately though, there is nowhere for the water to drain since it is a parking lot, and due to the size of the venue.

We definitely are goint to be at Disney next year. We were trying to get FIRST to let us take one of the division signs they had up in the pits, and Lori from FIRST told us that Disney made the signs, and were going to remove the 10 year logo from them for next year… Gues this also means divisions are here to stay.

About the divisions…
I thought they worked out GREAT. Made things MUCH easier when it came time to scout. Once they were run as a regional, I had no complaints. Also, here some some interesting numbers…

The Newton division had the highest #1 average, while the Galileo division had the lowest. However, the Galileo division required the highest average to be in the top 8 (~294 average required) while the Newton division required the lowest (~260).

Overall, I think nationals this year was fantastic, with the exception of all the rain on thursday, but hey, all you guys need to experience a REAL Florida rainstorm at least once in your lives. The game turned out GREAT, and in contrast to regionals, the communication between teams on stage seemed to go MUCH smoother.

Congrats to all, and only 8 more months till season 11…

Jason

#3

Posted by Kyle Hill at 04/08/2001 11:34 PM EST

Student on team #311, Red Jammers, from East Islip High School and FTK Foundation, Computer Associates, Keyspan.

In Reply to: Some other thoughts, and observations
Posted by Jason Rudolph on 04/08/2001 9:03 PM EST:

: Overall, I think nationals this year was fantastic, with the exception of all the rain on thursday, but hey, all you guys need to experience a REAL Florida rainstorm at least once in your lives.

LOL… that wasn’t a rainstorm. That was Moses unleashing a plague upon Egypt.

#4

Posted by Josh at 04/09/2001 7:45 AM EST

Engineer on team #419, Rambots, from Wentworth Institute of Technology.

In Reply to: Re: Some other thoughts, and observations
Posted by Kyle Hill on 04/08/2001 11:34 PM EST:

/me says with a whisper
i’m sorry, i liked the rain…

Josh
“A $1500 control panel will protect a $.10 fuse by blowing first.”

#5

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/09/2001 1:05 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Some other thoughts, and observations
Posted by Jason Rudolph on 04/08/2001 9:03 PM EST:

I loved that FIRST broke the Nationals up into 4
regionals.

While there were a lot of teams who can fairly agrue
that they were in a division with an unfair number of
XXX robots or not enough YYY robots. This is NOTHING
compared to the CHAOS that would have reigned had they
not divided the teams up into divisions.

For the most part, things seemed to work as fairly as
possible when you are trying to sort through and rank
so many teams with so relatively few comparisons.

To all the teams that were infact “done in” by their
dumb luck, I am sorry. But again, I think that things
would have been MUCH worse if they had not regionalized
the nationals.

Also, having the Semi-finals and Finals on the main
stage was a big improvement too. In past years, one
set of teams for the Finals came from a totally
different stage. It didn’t seem fair to those teams.

Joe J.

P.S. One final note, I hope that FIRST goes to 6
divisions next year rather than keeping 4 divisions and
increasing the number of teams per division by 40%.
Maybe even 8 stages would be a better idea. One good
thing about divisions is that they are “scaleable” to
fit the number of teams. For me, the important thing
is to keep the ration of teams per division to number
of seeding rounds as low as possible 10 seems to me to
be about as high as the ratio should ever get. JJ

#6

Posted by ChrisH at 04/09/2001 3:14 PM EST

Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.

In Reply to: Some other thoughts, and observations
Posted by Jason Rudolph on 04/08/2001 9:03 PM EST:

: Overall, I think nationals this year was fantastic, with the exception of all the rain on thursday, but hey, all you guys need to experience a REAL Florida rainstorm at least once in your lives. The game turned out GREAT, and in contrast to regionals, the communication between teams on stage seemed to go MUCH smoother.

I don’t know which regionals you went to, but they must have been really chaotic. Our operators reported that they had much more trouble negotiating strategy at Nationals than at either of the West Coast regionals.

Interestingly, we got our best scores with the most flexible partners(in terms of attitude), who were generally also lower seeds. The lower seeds also tended to be more honest about their abilities (or lack thereof).

I know because I was one of the ones who went around talking to ALL of the teams in our group before we were called up. Before that, I’d check the data bases as to what the teams had done previously.

I won’t say that teams lied, but what they claimed they could do often wasn’t reflected in the databases. Our operators recieved special notes about that. We didn’t care what a team’s score or standing was, we wanted to know what they had attempted and what they successfully achieved.

Note these were general trends. I can think of specific examples of exceptions to each general statement. But a trend that’s 75% correct is still a trend.

Chris Husmann
Team 330 the Beach’Bots

#7

Posted by Jared at 04/08/2001 9:14 PM EST

Student on team #312, Heatwave, from Lakewood High and Baxter.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

I agree with you on a lot of things. First, what is with those colored flags anyways??

Another is the seating on the indoor fields. My team could rarely find a seat in the stands so instead we went to the side behind the player stations. Also the seating at Einstein was blocked again this year by the Media Tower. Why can’t they move that to another location?

Also the time you get to choose an alliance and set up a strategy is short. I remember at the KSC Regionals a lot of people had to skip lunch in order to do this.

But all together my overall experience of Nationals this year was great. Although our pit was all the way on the opposite side of the complex and I had to walk countless times all day from the fields and picnic areas over there, what a great workout and not to forget the freezing cold air when the pits first opened, I believe it was awesome. My team did better this year and I was more involved and had an overall great experience and am very sad that it is all over. I can’t wait for it all to begin again next year.

-= Jared =-
#312
!HEATWAVE!

#8

Posted by Deej- T190 at 04/08/2001 9:24 PM EST

Engineer on team #190, Gompeii, from Mass Academy and WPI.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

: I figured I’d post some random thoughts I had on Nationals…

: After the speech by the VP of Epcot, I doubt we’re leaving Epcot next year. The impression I got from him was that Disney plans to host us there next year.

: The National Beverage Company makes Shasta (off-brand) and Faygo soda (diet soda in a variety of flavors – some unique). My bet is that Shasta Cola will bear the FIRST logo. I’m still waiting for Johnson & Johnson and GM to pick up on it.

: Disney needs a better method of dealing with rainwater in the pit. The rising water was a bit of poor planning and I expect better of Disney. Then again I don’t expect a parking lot to have great drainage.

: What’s up with those random colored flags at the top of the stands? They’ve had them as long as I’ve been going but they don’t stand for anything. Maybe we can get Disney to change them to something FIRST related at least.

: I liked the 10 year video done by Disney but showing it right after the FIRST 10 year video was a bit mistimed. Very good editing by Disney however for showing the awards ceremony (they did that last year, no?).

: Seating was yet again limited on the indoor fields. It’d be nice if Disney could use a bigger tent and put in more seating room.

: It was yet again impossible to see the field for the finals because of the media stand. I had to watch the screen instead of the action because of that. Can’t we just put the media BEHIND the field?

: Kudos to FIRST for listening and treating divisions as regionals. But it would’ve been nice to find that out before nationals.

: The time between the end of matches and picking was entirely too short. I did appreciate the idea of all the pickers just refusing to pick because of not enough preperation time that was told to me. But seriously, FIRST needs to do something about that.

: I applaud Dean for having the guts to get up and apologize for the music video. I’m not even sure why Disney chose to play music videos as fillers anyway.

: What happened to the pictures of the robots for the yearbook? During awards, they didn’t show them at all. It would be nice to know what the winner of the Imagery award looked like after all…

: Finally, congratulations to teams 71, 294, 125, 365, and 279. And most importantly, congratulations to team 22.

: Matt who thinks closing ceremonies was running early because Dean didn’t give a long speech this year…

I was kinda disappointed that Dean didn’t have a lawyer joke to tell…always a part of his speeches…

#9

Posted by Jay Lundy at 04/08/2001 10:35 PM EST

Student on team #254, The Cheesy Poofs, from Bellarmine College Preparatory and NASA Ames, Cypress Semiconductor, and Unity Care.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

The flooding was a little frantic. I thought it was humorous when I heard over the loud speaker, “Please stand away from all electrical cables surrounding the tents.” I went over to look at it and saw the water underneath the floor, but wasnt really near any pit stations yet. By the time I walked back to my pit, though, I saw that the water had already reached the 1st row of pits and was spreading rapidly towards our huge clump of wires spread out on the ground. We had to franticly clean up the wires, and luckily it stopped raining so the water stopped spreading so fast. It was a near disaster.

Luckily it forced us to organize our pit. It was the first time I’d ever seen it so clean.

#10

Posted by James Jones at 04/09/2001 11:19 AM EST

Engineer on team #267, The Demolition Squad, from North Broward & St Andrews and Motorola.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

So Dean did apologize for the videos? Could someone summarize what he said? My wife and I were extremely disappointed that someone had the extremely poor taste to show that. We left as Dean was beginning to speak because our young kids were having a hard time sitting in the stands for that long.

#11

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/09/2001 12:21 PM EST

Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.

In Reply to: Video Apology
Posted by James Jones on 04/09/2001 11:19 AM EST:

Dean apologized for the video that was shown between FIRST’s part of closing ceremonies and Disney’s part. He came on stage and said it was in poor taste, etc. and apologized.

Matt who wonders who’s bright idea it was to show music videos…maybe showing previous years matches would be cool…

#12

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/09/2001 1:19 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Re: Video Apology
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/09/2001 12:21 PM EST:

Dean also said that the tape was more or less just a
random tape grabbed and played because Disney needed
more time before doing their Grand Finale (which I
thought was great by the way).

I believe him.

Next year, I think they will have a tape marked
“OFFICIALLY APPROVED TIME KILLER TAPE” handy for the
occassion.

Finally, I think that it speaks a lot about our society
(as well as being ironic in the extreme) that any
random tape laying around is as likely as not to be
filled with sex and violence.

Joe J.

#13

Posted by Wayne Cokeley at 04/09/2001 2:27 PM EST

Coach on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Twp. H.S. and Bristol-Myers Squibb.

In Reply to: Random Filler
Posted by Joe Johnson on 04/09/2001 1:19 PM EST:

: Dean also said that the tape was more or less just a
: random tape grabbed and played because Disney needed
: more time before doing their Grand Finale (which I
: thought was great by the way).

: I believe him.

: Next year, I think they will have a tape marked
: “OFFICIALLY APPROVED TIME KILLER TAPE” handy for the
: occassion.

: Finally, I think that it speaks a lot about our society
: (as well as being ironic in the extreme) that any
: random tape laying around is as likely as not to be
: filled with sex and violence.

: Joe J.

I think it also says something that in the “rarified” atmosphere of the Disney world the preferred entertainment tape left sitting around was in fact a “questionable” tape. Does Disney have a seamy underworld behind the scenes? As a high school teacher in a rapidly urbanizing district in NJ I can say from experience that the wholesome, all American, apple pie kid is a thing of the past. Face the facts- this risque stuff is what the kids flock to and what society is selling today. I am willing to bet that many of the kids in that crowd would have rather watched more videos like that “forbidden” video than listen to the speeches. Sad but true. We have a long road ahead…
Maybe the answer for next year is a video showing short clips of ALL the teams in their rounds since any given division could only see their flight’s activities. My guys would have loved to see the “body suit” controls which won the Innovation in Control Award! We also would have loved to have appeared somewhere in the closing because we were really proud of our 'bot and we felt a bit let down in the end. I’ll bet every team was equally proud. An all encompassing video would be a real crowd pleaser.
This video could start with short bits from the regionals. The show last year with the photos was tremendous- better than this year’s in my mind. Everybody likes to be recognized, even if just for a brief second. How many anonymous teams will go home this year with a losing robot, disinterested sponsors and little hope for improvement? How many won’t return next year? The little recognition of a spot in the film might be the motivation needed to try again and succeed. It sure wouldn’t hurt.

If the teams want to organize this or help out FIRST count us in. We’ll find some way to make the time.:slight_smile:

OK down off the soap box and back over the wall…
WC

#14

Posted by William Swanson at 04/09/2001 2:53 PM EST

Coach on team #353, POBOTS, from Mattlin Middle School.

In Reply to: Re: Random Filler
Posted by Wayne Cokeley on 04/09/2001 2:27 PM EST:

Your idea for a filler of all teams at regional and finals is excellant. As we were unaware of what the final ceremonies were about and the heat making some of us very uncomfortable, half of our team went to Epcot. I am ashamed to say I approved this. They missed one of the most exciting ceremonies I have seen in a long time. Our team will never leave the competition until it is over again.
The team members that stayed were mesmerized by the ceremony. One member was in awe of Dean’s speech and was even more into the FIRST experience than when she came. When Disney’s video came on, we watched. It made our spirits soar when we saw our kids surrounding me in the video. What an honor. Our kids, parents, and teachers that saw that were more excited than at the competition (we were in the top third at Newton). The words " Wait till our superintendant hears that we were seen by 15,000 people" were spoken by our parents and team members who were there. It will add much enthusiasm to the program as well as support. Every team should be able to feel as we did.
You are right on the money about anonymous teams beaten down by administration and sponsors because they didn’t win. what a poor attitude when our students learn so much from this program. To get to Disney is a very large accomplishment in itself. The planning and committment is a very huge and rewarding responsibility. It shows the character of every team that competed.
We will be back next year and we will will have learned from our mistakes. It was a fantastic experience.

#15

Posted by ChrisH at 04/09/2001 2:40 PM EST

Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.

In Reply to: Random Filler
Posted by Joe Johnson on 04/09/2001 1:19 PM EST:

I agree on all points. I’m glad that Dean made the apology as it saved me having to write a nasty letter to FIRST.

Actually the videos before the award ceremony were almost as bad, but some had some pretty cool animation work that almost made them worthwhile. But there was as I recall enough violence depicted that it made Woodie’s remarks about reinactors seem laughable.

All in all AutoDesk award submissions would probably have been more appropriate all around. They actually did that at San Jose, or was it LA, or both?

I can’t remember any more as I look back on the competition season through a haze of exhaustion.

Chris Husmann
Team 330 The Beach’Bots

#16

Posted by Lora Knepper at 04/09/2001 7:59 PM EST

Other on team #177, Bobcat Robotics - Adoptee, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells.

In Reply to: Re: Video Apology
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/09/2001 12:21 PM EST:

It wasn’t only the adults that were shocked. I remember looking over to my teammates as we were all shocked that FIRST/Disney would ever put on something like that. It was in poor taste, and I am glad that Dean apologized. Animation submissions would have been much much much better – and frankly, more interesting.

~ lora

#17

Posted by Nick at 04/09/2001 9:28 PM EST

Student on team #240, Mach V, from Jefferson Monroe High School and Visteon.

In Reply to: Video Apology
Posted by James Jones on 04/09/2001 11:19 AM EST:

I think that the whole music videos were a good idea.
However I was surprised there was almost no screening
for content other than 335 teams and many respected
individuals viewing it on the large screen. I’m not
sure whether he was apologizing for the first of the
two videos (the fillers before Disney’s show), both of
the videos, or the whole music videos in general. Did
anyone else notice that they faded out one of the
videos before the ceremonies started and quickly
changed it to a video they were sure was clean
(N’Sync)? I wonder how much trouble someone got in for
playing those? I would say there is a good chance they
lost there job.

#18

Posted by James Jones at 04/09/2001 11:40 AM EST

Engineer on team #267, The Demolition Squad, from North Broward & St Andrews and Motorola.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

I was dissappointed to hear Woodie’s comments disparaging historical battle reenactments. While not a participant myself I have attended some and I think they give you a better understanding of the tremendous courage and self sacrifice shown by those who have gone before us. I think they also help illustrate how terrible violence and war can be. When you realize all those people that just fell down on the field represent a real person who several hundred years ago fell down because they got some part of their body blown off and lay there and bled to death it is quite sobering. Perhaps some reenactments are different from the ones I have seen but I don’t think they glorify violence at all. Indeed, I think they can be a good reality check as compared to the idiotic, surreal violence that is glorified in movies and video games.

Woodie gets it about alot of things but I don’t think he understands what historical reenactments are all about. I can only think about the old saying that people who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. We have had relative peace for a generation now. That generation should not be allowed to forget what war is really about or just what people in the past have been willing to sacrifice to provide the peace we now enjoy.

#19

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/09/2001 12:51 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Historical Reenactments
Posted by James Jones on 04/09/2001 11:40 AM EST:

While I am in no way the type that goes for historical
reenactments, I know a lot of very good folks who are
involved in this movement.

I agree with your comments. In my opinion, Woodie was
far from the mark with his comments about historical
reenactments.

Their are MANY things wrong with American Culture.
Celebration of violence by Historical Reenactment
Societies does not even make my top 1000 list yet alone
rise to the level that I think Woodie should have
singled them out for special scorn at the FIRST Nationals.

I know that Woodie is a man of good will, so my only
explanation is that he must be ill informed.

Ask him next time you see him.

Joe J.

#20

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/09/2001 1:30 PM EST

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

In Reply to: Thoughts on Nationals
Posted by Matt Leese on 04/08/2001 8:33 PM EST:

Matt,

It is funny that you should mention that Dean didn’t
give a long speach.

I have been watching Dean for 6 years.

I have never seen Dean as “on message” in public as he
has been during the last 6 months.

Did anyone else notice that Dean asked for his notes
after he balanced the bridge with the I-bot?

Why the change? I think Laura London is really working
hard to make sure Dean keeps to the message that he
wants to convey and not straying too far afield.

Regardless of the reason, I think that Dean is getting
more points in with the media and others because of his
new found focus.

Let’s hope he keeps it up.

Joe J.

#21

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/09/2001 4:20 PM EST

Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.

In Reply to: Dean was ON MESSAGE
Posted by Joe Johnson on 04/09/2001 1:30 PM EST:

I think he might also be more on message recently for fear of leaking something about IT/Ginger that he didn’t want to. I also think he’s been more in the spotlight recently and gotten better at staying on message.

Matt who wished Dean had come up with a more creative homework assignment because his is already done…