This weekend at the FRC Peachtree District Gainesville event during semifinal 2 we had a tiebreaker match triggered and thus a field timeout between semifinal match 2-2 and 2-3.
This field timeout started instantly after a few seconds of showing the result of the previous match. Teams were still loading off of the field.
Congestion around the field area can slow the load off of the field process by around a minute or so depending on several factors. In our case teams red alliance 1414 and blue alliance 4188 were not fully off the field until after around 1 minute of the timeout timer had expired.
I believe this timer was started too early…but I am unsure when it should have been started based on how no specific information about the start of the timeout is given in the Game Manual.
My question is…should timeouts/field-timeouts start before all the teams have been given the chance to exit the field from the previous match? I have also submitted this question to the FRC Q&A.
As the alliance captain we were fully aware of the timeout timer and ensured we were on the field before T-0, and we were doing our best to get everyone (our partners) to the field as well. Ultimately 1414 was 1 minute late after T-0 and was not allowed onto the field. My question is not about the ruling about whether or not 1414 should have been allowed onto the field.
I just want to ensure that timeouts start at the appropriate time across all events.
I checked the Twitch recording of the Palmetto Regional playoffs and they were not starting the timeout timer until well after teams had the chance to leave the field.
With the new strict rules about being on the field by the end of a timeout. I think there needs to be equally strict rules about when the timeout should start and that should be communicated as clearly.
The game manual does not clearly state when the timeouts will begin, and I think it is absolutely necessary that this is clearly written out and consistent.
I have no clear answer to the problem, but you should probably submit this to the q and a. This is an issue that needs clarification and the only people that can do anything about it is FIRST.
This is fairly clearly called out in the manual (namely figure 12-4 and rule T3). Figure 12-4 shows that Field Timeouts begin at the Arena Reset signal (i.e. the green lights turning on), and T3 states that if a team timeout is called then it begins two minutes after Arena Reset. It’s likely the behavior you saw on the stream was because the Palmetto timeout was a team timeout and yours was a field timeout.
Imo, the timeout should start as soon as the lights on the field turn green since that is when teams typically both remove and place their bots on the field. Whether or not that is how robot placement should be done is a separate issue.
I see what you are pointing out now. That probably answers my question. Even so…I did see a significant discrepancy between events.
I also know for a fact that there are slowdowns caused by volunteers, other teams, congestion around the field on exiting the field that could potentially prevent teams from getting done what needs to be done during a timeout.
We had this problem first hand at south champs last year, timer started before we even began taking our robots off the field (which had a triple climb pinned under the scale so took some time to take down safely) by the time we were off the field we had less the 2 minutes reset, inspect, change battery’s, and bumper colors from blue to red and be back on the field for the most important match of our season.
If it wasn’t for my students begging and pleading, the head ref was going to disqualify our entire alliance for Finals Match 1 (and other volunteers were encouraging him to do so). I’ve never been more disappointed at a FIRST event and think it should be addressed more clearly.
As one of the MCs at the event, we made sure that we took the time to alert teams at specific intervals about the remaining time of a field timeout or an alliance timeout. And reviewing the footage & being there, we even waited until the scores were announced to start the timer. Meaning you had extra time from the field timeout that would have accounted for the lost time of the field reset logistics, as well as ample notification of the timings.
I am searching for consistancy across all events on when the timer should start. I also think the time it takes teams to leave the field should be accounted for since it appears it is not right now in the current manual.
My team was the FIRST team on the field before T-0. We couldn’t completely control our partner being late. We told them as we were walking to the field to come “now.”
Separately I’ll also being going back and reviewing footage to verify your claim. I certainly remember you doing it after this incident, but I dont clearly remember you doing it before hand. Either way your announcing of the time remaining isn’t what this thread or post is about.
Someone in another chat of mine posted a good thought in response to the idea of waiting till teams are off the field.
If this were the norm, it would be within the rules for a partner team to loiter on the field for an excessive amount of time to ensure that their partner had sufficient time to fix their robot. This could last an indefinite/subjective amount of time and could cause match delays of 10+ minutes in what would normally be a six-minute window. This is inherently unfair to the opposing alliance.
Furthermore, the playoff format has been fixed for a long time. The time demands are known and are something that teams need to account for in robot design. Robot breaks aren’t always fair or equitable, but it’s a fact of the game and teams have to be prepared to deal with it.
Ultimately, I understand the decision made.
As a fan of the sport, I was disappointed to see 1414 not be able to play, but your proposed solution has a lot of loopholes that could cause problems. I do think there is room for discussion of a three or four-minute field timeout, instead of the two-minute addition to the field clock as it currently stands.
On a related note, if anyone has any stats about the number of timeouts used during the average event, I’d be really curious to hear what that number is.
As a drive team member on team 1414, I can confirm that we arrived at the gate after the end of the timeout. Under the current wording of the rules, I respect the decision of the referees and understand why we were not allowed on the field. However, I do have an issue with the inconsistency of how the rules are enforced. I’m not going to include team names/numbers because the point of this post isn’t to point out specific teams (it’s neither helpful or constructive). However, during the same event, there were times where teams were still working on preparing their robot on the field after the end of the timeout. For example, I remember teams deploying code on the field after well past the timeout’s end. According to the rules these robots are subject to C7 and should be dissabled during the match. This is for the exact same reason why we were not allowed to play: to prevent delays. I am personally perfectly ok with these teams. After working a hard 6 weeks building a robot, it seems silly to prevent a team from playing because they need 30 seconds to get their robot to work. My issue is that though both my team and other teams caused match delays, the fact that the other robots were on the field allowed them to play and prevented us from playing. We could have just as easily deployed code on the field instead of in the pit and been allowed to play.
Bottom line is, if the closing of the gate at the end of timeout is going to be enforced harshly this year, C7, preventing teams from working on the field, needs to be enforced just as harshly.
Sorry for the long post. Again, not trying to attack any one team specifically.
If you guys think that there needs to be a change, given that the timer starts the second the lights go green, email frcteams at firstinspires dot org. Personally I’d note that you can’t even get to your robot until the lights go green, and that you then need to get your robots off of the field, which can take 2 minutes of your timeout.
Don’t ask for the rule to change, though: Ask for the length of the timeout to change based on estimated field clear time. Instead of 6 minutes default, can it be 7 minutes or 8 minutes, for example.
I will echo @EricH and his senitment - the Q&A will just be able to tell you what’s in the Game Manual, and that’s already been pretty well established (Figure 12-4 and Rule T-3). But the Q&A is not the place to ask for anything to change - you really need to send that to frcteams or to Frank (the Director of FRC).
I would be incredibly surprised if you didn’t merely get a reply from the Q&A just telling you exactly what the Game Manual says (which, honestly, a CTRL-F on the Game Manual could have just told you).