Posted by Austin, Other on team #47 from pchs.
Posted on 2/27/99 5:41 PM MST
Does anybody else see this?
why would first make it a requirement to have it 8 feet in the air if they didnt want to see robots tip.Cause if something is that high up with a little base it’s going to fall with little force acted upon it.
Posted by Dan, Student on team #10, BSM, from Benilde-St. Margaret’s and Banner Engineering.
Posted on 2/27/99 6:07 PM MST
In Reply to: tipping robots posted by Austin on 2/27/99 5:41 PM MST:
Are you at the competition right now?? Did you guys get tipped? Come on . .give us some details. :-Dan
: Does anybody else see this?
: why would first make it a requirement to have it 8 feet in the air if they didnt want to see robots tip.Cause if something is that high up with a little base it’s going to fall with little force acted upon it.
Posted by jason, Coach on team #252/254, Bay Bombers/Cheesy Poofs, from Broadway High and NASA Ames.
Posted on 2/27/99 11:15 PM MST
In Reply to: Re: tipping robots posted by Dan on 2/27/99 6:07 PM MST:
: Are you at the competition right now?? Did you guys get tipped? Come on . .give us some details. :-Dan
This is from the Broadway High / NASA AMES Robotics team.
The 1999 Western Regional Champions along with Woodside High (a terrific
team with truly wonderful kids and coaches) We had a very difficult
3 days with many ups and downs - but the kids really came through and
played amazing on the final day today. Everything came together and we
couldn’t have asked anything more of our kids. The other schools in the
playoffs were all so great. not only were the robots really well
built, but the teams were just incredible. I can’t name all 16, but
Woodside, Hawthorne, Gunn, Brandeis, Kingman, Queen Creek/Highland,
Vintage, Northridge/Chatsworth, Willow Glen, Foothill, Monte Vista, and
all the others were so impressive. We are a rookie team and didn’t
really know what to expect, but never did we imagine being surrounded by
so many friendly, hard working, brilliantly designed, skillfully
controlled teams.
OK, now to try to answer some of the questions:
This is long because I think it can help answer a lot of the questions
for teams in the remaining regionals and hopefully help teams out.
We just finished the Western Regional (NASA Ames) today - and the tipping
issue ended up being very important. we had a total of twelve matches
in the qualifying round (about 30 schools showed up)and 7 matches in the
playoffs - and were personally involved in 4 tippings, our robot being
tipped three times. I think our experience is important because it
showed every aspect of tipping.
Once we were totally responsible for tipping - driver and controller error.
Once we were fully extended over 8ft, but were unable to properly ground
ourself. However, we engaged another robot which was on the puck, it
turned to defend itself, rammed our robot, and tipped us over and out of
the field. As far as I’m concerned, even though it cost us a match, it
was legal and acceptable because we were engaging them and trying to gain
control of the puck.
Once, one team was on the puck and controlled it. We were unable to
latch onto the pole, so decided to back away from the puck and raise our
floppies. The robot on the puck waited until we extended, then moved
their arms under our basket, and intentionally tipped us over with 3
seconds left in the match (in a slow motion moment of agony, I don’t
think our robot actually thumped to the floor until well after the match
had ended.) They were disqualified by the judges for unsportsmanlike
conduct. The reasoning was this:
every robot had established their position, we had backed off and
were not engaging them, we were not in a space on the field or
controlling anything they would want, and there was absolutely no
threat to them or their position. So with the above conditions, it was
clear that there was ONLY ONE intention with their action - to tip us.
The officials said that was not in the spirit of the game and would not
and could not be allowed - because it would have set the standard so to
speak at the rest of the regionals after ours basically allowing
teams to batter and injure others.
In the next match, that very robot which was disqualified against us,
was tipped over itself. It was tipped about 25 seconds into the match
while three teams were all trying to control the puck. They were trying
to get on the puck. We were on their left pushing the puck to their side.
Our ally was pushing the puck from the right side toward their side. As
the front of their robot tried to go up the puck, the puck spun towards
us and their wheels actually came off the ground and onto our robot. As
we continued to push the puck forward they tipped over. The judges said
that was completely allowed because it was a result of engagement and
trying to control aspects of the playing field. We were clearly only
trying to push the puck, while the movements of all three robots put
together with the puck results in the conditions which led to their tip.
They key was that we were trying to defend the puck and clearly had not
made any attempt to actually tip them on purpose (I hope they know that)
It was unfortunate, because they are a great veteran team and throughout
the competition all of our best and most competitive matches involved
their team (both allied with us, and against us) Even before the playoffs
and everything, our two teams communicated a lot and they went out of
their way to answer any questions we had and/or help us. Our students
look up to and admire their team (they have actually been the model I
have used for the past 2 months as to what level our students should try
to reach within a year or so)
After much thought and discussion, I really do think the refs made
the right call in each above case (the two decisions against us and
the two in our favor) I would love to hear other opinions about the
above situations. Good Luck to everyone!!! We look forward to seeing
you all in Florida and hopefully getting to ally with as many of you
as possible.
Jason Morrella,
Broadway High
San Jose, CA
P.S. I will never post a message this long again. I PROMISE. I just
thought you might want to know the details of the tipping issue in case
it comes up at your regionals.
Posted by Dan, Student on team #10, BSM, from Benilde-St. Margaret’s and Banner Engineering.
Posted on 2/27/99 11:33 PM MST
In Reply to: Re: tipping robots posted by jason on 2/27/99 11:15 PM MST:
Thanks Jason, I wish you’d promise to write more messages like that instead. That clears up A LOT of things.
I really enjoyed watching your robot and congratulations on your success. I hope to see you in Florida. :-Dan
Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.
Posted on 2/28/99 7:10 PM MST
In Reply to: Thanks . . posted by Dan on 2/27/99 11:33 PM MST:
Until I heard the explanation of exactly what happened i thought that the refs may have made a bad judgement. It appeared on tv that Broadway was trying to engage the puck while lifting the floppies over 8ft. However there was a rough angle for that particular shot so I misinterpreteted what happened. I feel that if they were trying to engage the puck, it was a valid tip, but from what Jason says, the refs made an outstanding call. Being tipped sucks any way you put it, and im glad they are preventing tipping that is unsportsmanlike. I hated watching my old teams machine fall in the semi’s in “97” due to tipping device and i feel the same this year about seeing teams tipped unfairly.
Good Luck to all,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne
Posted by Brad Pflum, Coach on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems.
Posted on 2/28/99 11:41 PM MST
In Reply to: Re: Thanks . . posted by Andy Grady on 2/28/99 7:10 PM MST:
: Until I heard the explanation of exactly what happened i thought that
: the refs may have made a bad judgement. It appeared on tv that Broadway
: was trying to engage the puck while lifting the floppies over 8ft.
Please read my reply to Jason’s statements.
: However there was a rough angle for that particular shot so I
: misinterpreteted what happened. I feel that if they were trying to
: engage the puck, it was a valid tip, but from what Jason says, the refs
They were engaging the puck. We issued a legit tip. Please read my reply to Jason’s statements.
: made an outstanding call. Being tipped sucks any way you put it, and
: im glad they are preventing tipping that is unsportsmanlike. I hated
: watching my old teams machine fall in the semi’s in “97” due to tipping
: device and i feel the same this year about seeing teams tipped unfairly.
The tip was unintentional and as such not unsportsmanlike. i know exactly
how much being tipped sucks. when we were tipped in our last match the
robot fell on and bent the arm. my fellow students and I spent an
insane ammount of time designing, prototyping and building and re-building that arm.
it’s heartbreaking when two robots push you over and your hard work gets
bent. Now i get to spend even more time replacing it. But thats the
game and that’s life. We built that sucker strong as hell, the bend is slight and it’ll still
function pretty well but we don’t like having bent arms, and WE know it’s there 
see ya in florida,
-Brad
Senior at Gunn High School
Co-Captain & Coach, Gunn Robotics Team
Posted by Andy Grady, Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.
Posted on 3/1/99 8:24 AM MST
In Reply to: Re: Thanks . . posted by Brad Pflum on 2/28/99 11:41 PM MST:
There are two sides to every story, and i feel that there is a median to this whole story. First look at why Gunn was so successful. Lets face it, Gunn was like a vetern in there, pushing teams around when they needed and using force to get control of the puck. Now there is nothing wrong with that. The arm that Gunn has on thier machine was being used many times in the competition to force other robots out of position and other things. I remember one round Gunn knocked a robot clean off the puck with their arm. It was totally legal, but it was used none the less. I also believe that the same arm broke on of the flags on the puck, correct me if im wrong. The way i see it is that they were sitting on thin ice and were pushing the bounds of contact. The refs must had noticed this and took action when the Bay Bomber was tipped. If you watch the video from Chicago you will see that it was much more brutal than California. What Gunn was doing was nothing compared to what some of the teams in chicago were doing, yet there were no DQ’s. Mabey FIRST needs to confer with the refs and clear up all of this. Thats how I see it at least.
Congrats to Both teams on a great battle,
Andy Grady
Posted by Brad Pflum, Coach on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Gunn High School and Nasa Ames, Sun Microsystems.
Posted on 2/28/99 11:27 PM MST
In Reply to: Re: tipping robots posted by jason on 2/27/99 11:15 PM MST:
My name is Brad Pflum, I’m a senior at Gunn High school, co-captain of and Coach of the Gunn Robotics Team #192. In the first round of the semi-finals my alliance was disqualified for “intentionally tipping” the Bay Bomber team #252. As with any controversy, there are two (or more) sides to the story. Here is mine.
Below is Jason’s version. The robot he is talking about is G-Force: my team. I have refuted or agreed with each statement:
: Once, one team was on the puck and controlled it. We were unable to
False. About a minute into the match G-Force was pushed into a corner by bay bombers ally. We were NOT on the puck, nor did we control it. For most of the match we were being pinned against the driver station. About 45 seconds from the end bay bomber raced to the puck and helped pin us. We were spinning our front roller trying to get on the puck but the motors didn’t have the power to lift the robot with two others pushing it into the wall. Our robot uses a truncated wheel in the front to get the front end on the puck and ramps on the underside to drag the back up. It is weighted such that the arm has to be out in front to get on the puck. If the arm is not out in front the weight is too far back and we can’t drag the ■■■ end up. In practice we found that if we juggle the arm up and down it sometime helps get the back up, so for the last minute or so of the match you can see G-Force struggling to jerk and pull itself onto the puck.
: latch onto the pole, so decided to back away from the puck and raise our
: floppies. The robot on the puck waited until we extended, then moved
False. In the last couple of second the bay bomber continued to pin us against the wall. Our ally, the crusher, grabbed onto a pole, raised it’s floppies (it had time to collect 8 because the two opposing robots were pinning G-Force), and elevated. With time running out, bay bomber started to raise it’s basket - they were still driving into the puck at full force. Our arm was out and bay bomber drove into it. That moved our arm a bit and the gyro on the arm sensed it - our (very cool) control system is programed to apply power to the arm if it is falling, and when the bomber drove into the arm the arm wanted to get back to where it was, so the motors drove up and hit the bomber but the lag in the sensors and the control box made the arm start occilating. It hit the bomber on an upswing and since they have a short wheelbase they started rocking. Their driver was still gunning the motors full forward and when the robot rocked back the base jerked forward. Their cg was very high with their floppies up and the tipped farther backwards and their base drove right out from under them. Bay bomber’s ally was, at this time ramming into the crusher and with the pinning action of bay bomber now removed, G-Force jumped up onto the puck.
: their arms under our basket, and intentionally tipped us over with 3
: seconds left in the match (in a slow motion moment of agony, I don’t
: think our robot actually thumped to the floor until well after the match
: had ended.) They were disqualified by the judges for unsportsmanlike
: conduct. The reasoning was this:
: every robot had established their position, we had backed off and
: were not engaging them, we were not in a space on the field or
: controlling anything they would want, and there was absolutely no
You were clearly still engaging G-Force and the puck. The judges’ reasoning was that we were already on the puck. That’s untrue. I was right there starring at the robots and screaming at the top of my lungs “get on the puck!” We just wanted on that puck - if you hadnt been pinning us you wouldn’t have gotten knocked over.
: threat to them or their position. So with the above conditions, it was
: clear that there was ONLY ONE intention with their action - to tip us.
On a more personal note, Jason, as a friend, I hope you don’t belive that. I’ve never wished anything but the best for you’re team. I am so incredibly proud of what your team acomplished, and I would never want to take that from you. Tipping your robot was irrelivant, getting on the puck was our mission. That was our strategy - we control the puck and occupy the other robots while crusher raced around and got floppies and grabbed a pole that we would guard. Tipping you would serve no function anyway. Both our robots were on the puck and crusher had 8 flopping at 8 feet. That’s 216 points. Even if you had all 10 floppies at 8 feet (you didn’t, you had 7) that’s 7*3 times 2 for the puck on our side of the field = 60 points. We had already won. In retrospect, we actually didn’t need to be on the puck ourselves, but our strategy and one goal was to get on the damn puck. It was just luck that there was an open pole for crusher to jump on. We didn’t want to fail.
: In the next match, that very robot which was disqualified against us,
: was tipped over itself. It was tipped about 25 seconds into the match
…
: They key was that we were trying to defend the puck and clearly had not
: made any attempt to actually tip them on purpose (I hope they know that)
That was a clean hit. Totally legit. I doubt you did it on purpose, but it doesn’t matter anyway. Good shot, but it won’t happen again
: their way to answer any questions we had and/or help us. Our students
: look up to and admire their team (they have actually been the model I
: have used for the past 2 months as to what level our students should try
: to reach within a year or so)
This is what made it all better. When you talked to me at the end of the day I was really touched. I’m not bitter or upset at all with the disqualification. I know, in my heart, that it was unintentional. I do feel bad for The Crusher team, they picked us as an ally and I wish things they hadnt been hurt by a bad referee call.
Last, and possible most importantly: I’m not making this up. I read this thread in the morning and was going to reply but I decided to wait untill I was sure. I watched a video of the match in slow-mo about 6 million times and am confident in my claims. That’s right, I have video to back this all up. We’re working on getting it the tape on a computer so I can make our footage viewable over the web. Our camera angle was apparently much better then NASA’s, there is really no question - the video can’t lie. I’ll get that video up ASAP (with luck sometime this week)
I can be reached by e-mail, but I’ll be busy with the robot till Wednesday when I have to start making up 7 weeks worth of homework
Posted by Jason, Coach on team #252/254, Bay Bombers/Cheesy Poofs, from Broadway High and NASA Ames.
Posted on 3/1/99 12:55 AM MST
In Reply to: Re: tipping robots posted by Brad Pflum on 2/28/99 11:27 PM MST:
Brad,
we also watched a video, and we just see one or two things differently. Regardless, to keep from repeating myself, my response would be almost exactly what I said to BEN from GUNN under the General Forum. And I mean that. Talk to you later, hopefully before Florida, if not - certainly there.
Jason
Posted by Nate Smith, Student on team #74, Holland FIRST Robotics, from Holland High School and Haworth, Inc…
Posted on 2/27/99 8:24 PM MST
In Reply to: tipping robots posted by Austin on 2/27/99 5:41 PM MST:
I’ll try not to go into too much of a rant here, but here’s my two cents on the whole thing:
Yes, tipping should be expected and taken into consideration during the design process.
The line between a defensive maneuver and intentional tipping/robot destruction is a fine and fuzzy one. During the course of the Chicago event(not just during our rounds,) I saw several “defensive plays” whose sole purpose seemed to be to tip the other machine.
: Does anybody else see this?
: why would first make it a requirement to have it 8 feet in the air if they didnt want to see robots tip.Cause if something is that high up with a little base it’s going to fall with little force acted upon it.
Posted by David, Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home High School and Baxter Healthcare Corp…
Posted on 3/1/99 1:08 PM MST
In Reply to: tipping robots posted by Austin on 2/27/99 5:41 PM MST:
Read FIRST rule “V5” and Update #1 Q4. “Intentional Tipping IS NOT allowed.”
Posted by David, Student on team #74, H.O.T. H.E.A.D.S., from Holland High and Haworth.
Posted on 3/1/99 8:34 PM MST
In Reply to: tipping robots posted by Austin on 2/27/99 5:41 PM MST:
: Does anybody else see this?
: why would first make it a requirement to have it 8 feet in the air if they didnt want to see robots tip.Cause if something is that high up with a little base it’s going to fall with little force acted upon it.
well, as nate has already mentioned, there is a very fine line between this situation as our team in specific has seen. We were tipped and ‘trampled’ over by another teams robot, and nothing was said. I know Dean alwayas says stuff about
‘its not in the spirit of the game’ but what does that really mean? If what Chicago has seen with various rounds is not against the rules, how far can a team go with out being dis-qualified?
David Faber
holland first robotics '99
floppy drive