Two Boulder Auto

FIRST General Forum
#54

Nuff said in that video alone…So can I Al. “Multi-Auto Boulder Game Will Be Confirmed!” (Unless of course the GDC says it isn’t so).

If there is a will, and a will to take the risk if paying rewards exist, there is always a way to succeed.

While last years 2015 Recycle Rush rules have nothing to do with 2016 Stronghold Rules or Game…It’s Already proven by last years multi-string wire/cable connected units, that anything connected to a robot is considered 1 robot (Unless of course it is someone else’s robot that just reached inside your frame perimeter). Technical FOUL! (Batman, Robin & Alfred come immediately to mind…And I’m not talking about the foul part).

Robot defined by the 2016 Stronghold Game Rules:

“ROBOT an electromechanical assembly built by an FIRST Robotics Competition Team to perform specific tasks when competing in FIRST STRONGHOLD. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, and movement. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play FIRST STRONGHOLD (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would not satisfy this definition)”

That manipulator is attached to that robot & is a part of that assembly isn’t it? Is it performing a task for that ROBOT? If so, then it cannot enter the volume above that midline during Auto according to G13: (Got to just love the unlucky numbering of that rule if 1 tends to be even a wee bit superstitous! LOL.)

Woe is to those poor daring souls who tempt fate & risk it all to perform above and beyond in the Auto mission, and do fail (by entering that forbidden zone, or worse, enters it and touches an opposing robot on the other side at the same time), by points added to the opposing Alliance.

Yes the risks are huuuuge! And the rewards are great. (Huh, WHAAAAAT!?..It isn’t a TECH Foul though?? Just a simple Foul, and a further robot touch an additional simple Foul? you suffer 2 penalties=Net zero if you make the shot? And you don’t even lose the resulting shot if made…WOW!

Do the math. Auto Boulder worth 10 Points Each in Top Goal…Foul adds how many points to the opponents score? You say 5 points =Net gain, loss or tie? Risk vs. Rewards…Boulders on Midline value in Auto 2016 = Original Litter value in 2015?). I’LL TAKE ALL 6 PLEASE…One perfectly placed boulder at a time. Math is SOO GOOOOOOD.

I can already hear some begging, “errr lobbying” heavily next week, for the Auto Period to be increased with 6 available boulders out there on the oh, so dangerous MIDLINE. The math and the risk takers thinking outside the box just demands it!

Hint: Now, if you know someone is going for a multi-boulder auto, and you are on the opposing alliance and are NOT, a better strategy would be to simply add a delay of time to your auto mode programming of any possible movements toward crossing and shooting or delivering until a wee bit later (rather than earlier in the auto period). Nothing anti-GP about making the risks greater for the opponent by doing absolutely nothing for a wee bit longer. Just to watch em’ sweat, of course still attempting and making yours, just not as early in the period.

3.4.4 AUTO Rules

G13 During AUTO, ROBOTS may not enter the volume above the MIDLINE. Violation: FOUL. If contact is made with an opponent ROBOT beyond the MIDLINE, an additional FOUL is assessed and the opponent ROBOT is immediately awarded the CROSSING of the closest DEFENSE from the point of contact.

MIDLINE DEFINED:

MIDLINE a line of 2 in. white gaffers tape that bisects the length of the FIELD

The hunt to copy and quote of which leads to another question:

Saw the following (asking the question based on the exact terminology used in the rule, not attempting to lawyer it, just was curious on the exact wording and curious as to the answer that would be given by the GDC if asked). For just discussion, what say the parties here on CD?

G26 At any given time, only one (1) ROBOT may contact the carpet or BATTER inside their COURTYARD. Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, TECH FOUL

The question: (Given that they are talking about say Blue Alliance entering their own COURTYARD to play defense and defend their Tower and Castle against the dastardly attacking RED Alliance, and not the other Courtyard of The Dastardly Red Alliance, The Blue Alliance are actually attacking…Or, vice versa).

Does that actually mean that 1 Blue Robot could be on the BATTER of The Blue Tower, and 1 Blue Robot could be on the carpet of the Blue Courtyard at the same exact time, as long as they do not actually both occupy (contact), either The Batter or The Carpet at the same exact time? (Otherwise, they could have just written the rule as simply “Only 1 Robot can enter or occupy their own Courtyard at a time to defend or play defense against the attacking alliance” or the addition of 1 word “either” between the words “contact” & “the”). Since you cannot get to the Batter without entering the Courtyard.

Just more food for thought.

It would be quite easy to play tag team (one parked on the batter in front of a low goal & one on the carpet running circles around an attacking bot in active defense). You couldn’t tag team Batter to Carpet, Carpet to Batter (as that would require both bots at some point (contacting), batter or carpet at the same time…But, you could Courtyard to Secret Passage, Batter to Courtyard Carpet, and back to Batter/Courtyard. Either way 2 bots would still be in their own Courtyard at the same time playing defense against an attacking alliance.

Only the GDC knows the answer. But, someone actually playing the game would have to ask the question(s). (The use of the word “or” in both letter & spirit of the rule may just mean simply the same as “either.” Or, it may not.

#55

Oh so true.

But for those capable…The math simply demands it. Even with 2 penalties suffered, as long as you make it High Tower Auto Goal there is a net zero for the attempt. 1 penalty suffered you still gain net 5 points, no penalties 10 points, each attempt.

Added: “…The answers might be different for different teams.”

Well, when it comes to Harpoon Type Can snatchers…It certainly depends on who is standing just a couple of feet away on the sidelines!

#56

It is viable, you would have to start in front of the low bar or be able to precisely scale/cross another defense, drive forwards, shoot, come back, pick up the ball on the middle line in front of said obstacle, drive back to the shooting position, and shoot again. It is all possible if you have a fast robot with very precise and accurate movement and shooting capabilities, however it would be very close on time.

#57

Hail Fellow. I greet thee!

While I definitely do not expect to see many teams do a 2 boulder auto - it will be extremely hard in 15 seconds - I also don’t think it is quite as impossible as you make it out to be to get a boulder off the midline without obtaining a foul. Consider this scenario which I do believe is all perfectly legal.

Robot is placed on the field at the back edge of the auto zone, ~12 inches from the midline, preloaded with 1 boulder.

Auto starts.

Robot sets their boulder down in the auto zone, so they no longer control any boulders.

Robot lowers a roller arm intake mechanism toward midline. The team strategically placed their robot on the field so that the intake will contact the midline boulder without crossing the midline.

In this scenario, the robot has not driven one inch, and they have a boulder off the midline. The rest is obvious - cross defense, shoot, return to auto, collect the boulder that was set down, cross defense a second time, shoot.

I’m not saying this is easy!! But that is mostly because of the time limit, not because of the midline foul risk.

Godspeed on your quest.

  • Steve
#58

I went through the weekend thinking about 2 ball auto, and not seeing a way to do it. After seeing this thread, if you accept the 5 point foul, it would be possible for a 2 ball auto. It comes down to cycle time, move faster or move less. I can imagine some designs that would work, but it’s not an easy undertaking.

We’ll see what our students come up with and they want to do. If for nothing else, it’s a nice exercise to see what’s possible.

Thanks for inspiration to challenge my view of what possible.

Brian

#59

Or, start in the Spybot position, shoot/score, crossover an easy Defense (Sally Port and Drawbridge would be easiest to exit the Courtyard (if avail.), unless your bot is less than 16" high which is the height of that Low Bar Defense). Get and load Boulder go back across shoot & score (rinse and repeat until 15 seconds are up).

**And if the Drawing at 1.2 Introduction (labeled Figure 1-1: FIRST STRONGHOLD Arena), is correct as I suspect it is, after seeing the vid’s and other official docs.

And, if you read G20 in the literal sense. Then, you cannot go from the Courtyard you are attacking through the Secret Passageway & directly back to the Neutral Zone at any time. That is “your opponents secret passage.” Unlike the 2-2 Figure appearance, **wherein it **looks like that is your secret passage if you look at the flag colors.

This would make you only go back and forth (while attacking at least), between the Courtyard and Neutral Zone via crossing the Defense structures of the opponents Outer Works you are attacking and attempting to Breach.

This does make it a whole lot harder to do the repeated multi-boulder auto attempt (instead of going through what appeared to be by all of the direct overhead field illustrations like Figure 2-2: Zones & Markings, Figure 2-4: OUTER WORKS DEFENSE Placement, among others (that appear to have the flags reversed in all of the direct overhead views), and made it easily appear that you could legally (w/ the G50 Rule), just make a clockwise legal circular driving motion of Neutral Zone, over the opponents Outer Works/Defenses into the opponents Courtyard, attack the opponents Tower, exit the opponents Courtyard to YOUR SECRET PASSAGE -just going twice over that much lower only 1" high X 3" wide metal strip, then back into the neutral zone, snatching 1 ball at a time by plucking it off the line, and keep making that circle repeatedly pretty much without interference, as long as your alliance partners knew what you were attempting to do in auto, and stayed out of your way after their attempts.

3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction

G20 ROBOTS may only enter or exit their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from/to the opponent’s COURTYARD. A ROBOT is considered to be within the SECRET PASSAGE once the only carpet the ROBOT is in contact with is the carpet inside the SECRET PASSAGE. Violation: FOUL. If repeated, TECH FOUL

Emphasis mine.
****This makes the entire game that much more difficult to say the very least. Most people will easily parse the game and strategize on an overhead field view like Figure 2-2 more so, than to do so, on an angled far off view like Figure 1-1.

I could not figure out why I was getting a headache on the first read through the rules on Saturday morning (when I was switching back and forth between vids and the rules in PDF format on my laptop (later on I was reading them in a BW printed copy instead of color, and I thought it was just the flipped opposite field ends and that is why it wasn’t making any sense (I just could not visualize what was making me so uncomfortable and I just couldn’t understand why, thought I was just tired (the action actually gave me a headache trying to make sense of that field and the confusing aspects).

No, it was that the direct overhead drawings were all screwy due to the reversed flag colors, that made it appear the secret passages were Red w/ Blue Castle & Blue w/Red Castle instead of the much more proper Blue one side of field/Red on the other and only the attacking robots flipped to the opposite side of the field as attackers, and the much more natural human players w/ drive teams, and Spies on the far side, away from their natural and associated drive teams actually spying.

I’ll still say the attempts will still be there from the usual teams, but it won’t be as easy as I thought it would be earlier without that easier faster clockwise driving allowance.

It now appears like exiting from opponents Secret Passage to The Neutral Zone earns you a Foul and if you repeat the action it would be a TECH Foul also. (While G20 is 2 complete sentences, it is one section ending with the violation and penalties for violating, but, specific to G20 only, you cannot violate the 2nd sentence as it is descriptive only & not actionable to you, you can only violate the first sentence - Highly descriptive/very limiting/easily violated/& highly actionable). Anyone else read it that way too?

****Yes, I also realize there are other rules that also follow concerning the Secret Passage and Robot Interaction that follow…But, those have different meanings/violations/penalties.

#60

This is the only way I see teams doing this consistently, just taking the foul and going for the 27 pt autonomous.

Although some users have already shown that there are in fact some limited markers on the field to localize on (the auto line specifically would be my go-to when I see if my team wants to attempt this) and remove accumulated error. I could see a team or two using these and getting right up against the midline now.

0-32 in 15 seconds doesnt have quite the same ring to it though :frowning:

#61

We spent some time thinking on this and are skeptical as to whether or not even top teams will be able to score both boulders consistently enough to overcome the potential of a penalty.

  • Teams trying this will have to have multiple routines prepared and be able to breech several different defenses during auto as there is no guarantee that the “ideal” defense will be set up for you. At higher levels, teams can anticipate that the “wrong” defense will always be in place. In other words, unless you can either easily damage all 8 defenses (not low bar), or drive to your preferred defense without bumping into alliance members, it will be nothing more than a cutesy thing to show off once in a blue moon.

  • Even with the “ideal” defensive set up, the potential for the defenses to through you off by an few inches is very, very high. You’ll need very good vision-tracking that can quickly re-align the robot.

  • Relative to the size of the boulders, the tower windows are small. Accuracy is going to be imperative.

  • Because the additional boulders are on the mid-line (which you cannot cross at all), your acquisition devise must be able to take the boulder by grabbing it an inch short of the center. Very possible. However, if the robot should (after crossing a defense, shooting and returning) be off by so much as an inch, the risk of a penalty is very high.

  • If you cannot score the second boulder more than half as often as you commit the penalty, it’s a losing proposition.

So, it looks like that second boulder during auto is possible -but far more difficult than things like the three-tote auto we did well last year - with much less potential for reward. We decided we were not willing to put forth the amount of time it would likely take to perfect such a stunt… We believe that we can get much more “bang for the buck” by perfecting other attributes.

Will somebody do it? Yup. Will it have warranted the effort to make it work (scoring benefit v. time to develop and implement)? I doubt it. Of course, I am pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong about something every year in FRC…

#62

There are two factors that teams have to master for this to happen.

  1. Accurate driving. There are several steps with this, so if you will have drive with sensors providing feedback.

  2. A highly accurate high goal shooter.

If you build that in your robot, then you can think about it. If you’re that good at auto driving and shooting, you might be able to give it a try. If your close success, and are doing really well in matches (read winning with big margins), you might give up 5 points to keep flushing out the bugs since it won’t affect your results.

So, build your best bot. If you satisfy the above, give it a shot. BUT, don’t let 2 boulder auto drive your design.

Brian

#63

You too Steve,

Now, I envisioned a much different path and method “when I mistakenly thought that circular path through the Secret Passageway was possible and legal” (MY OPINION ONLY UNTIL THERE IS A Q&A & AN UPDATE FROM FIRST/GDC)…Straight through shoot high / or Spybot corner shoot high On the second pass (to get Boulder 2), down the Secret Passageway to the end (half way out into the Neutral Zone-Turn 90 degrees right, drive forward (Parallel to the 6 balls and that Midline), extend out left side about 12" in front of bumper with a plucker that hits the top right 1/3 of the hemisphere of the ball (a few inches away from the Midline tape edge, and draws it to the right on a roll toward the robot path, as you drive slowly by using ball location w/ vision sensing, it rolls right in front of your robot and perfectly in front of your boulder collector into bot, 90 degree turn through the next easily traversable Defense (backing up straight if necessary before the turn), vision target location shooting to closest upper goal after reaching the Courtyard carpet to 11’ away. Shoot & Score #2, how much time is left on the clock? Wanna try for 3?

15 seconds is a long time since most will be shooting high from at least 11’ from the Tower to reach upper goal. (3 goal openings at 3 different angles, no hot seeking, etc.)

Though I understand now that easy ride is over since the Secret Passageway is out. G20 and proper field drawings view makes a huge difference.

The math still says to try it when you look at risk vs reward. You can foul, & make the upper shot, and still end up net positive 5 points.

Tell me I can buy a Powerball ticket tonight, lose Wednesday night by getting none of the numbers, but I still get half the money Thursday. And I never play that sucker bet & I mean ever (though I’ll sit and play poker with anyone, so I’m a gambler. But, lotto isn’t gambling, it is a tax on poor people regularly wishing on rainbows)…OK, until it goes over that magic # - 1.3 BILLION w/ a “B”. Now that’s a NET POSITIVE. (Lose a lil’ vs. a chance on a BILLION PLUS-I’m buying now because that risk vs. reward just went huge). BTW, I did not play Saturday when it was $800+ Million$$$$$. Wifey had $2.00 in the office pool though, and they won $2.00…again.

Very worse case scenario: You have 1 down High Goal =10 points in the bag, you attempt 2nd, you miss really bad & go over the line, and run into a robot on the other side of the line (you may or may not have any robots over there at all by that time to hit…Who knows!?)

But, you just suffered the absolute biggest crash in all of FRC Robotics save for the “Backwards line crossing from the get go all the way across the field in Auto because a robot was placed backwards, or code really entered wrong, or motors plugged in backwards”, (AND WE HAVE ALL SEEN A FEW OF THOSE OVER THE YEARS)…You still are no better off than taking only a 1 single Boulder Auto shot chance, and simply and sadly missing. Or worse, it goes in hits the chains and bounces out.

Score zero, net zero. You cross the line (foul), but make the shot 1.5 times the score net (3 times the tele value net). But, you make it no fouls and high goal you cash in 2.0 times (but that is also 2 X the tele score X 2 a huge net gain that boulder is. And that extra one in Auto is actually worth the value of (wiping out equal to receiving 2 Tech Fouls as far as Power/Damage to Tower). There are a lot of chances of incurring Tech fouls in this particular game…But the second auto shot isn’t 1 of them. (Worse case-2 Regular Fouls net points wise, equal 1 Upper Auto Score).

Tell me another time in this game (FRC), that you can possibly take a large risk, possibly screw up so freaking bad, and pay for it so little? Screw up a lil’ and still have a good degree of chance to get a net positive, and or possibly succeed repeatedly, and score double (6~10 matches later it all adds up to real points)…And, it still isn’t worth the risk?

Then, I suggest we all start thinking about another game to play as this one is really expensive, if you don’t grab the brass ring, at least when the math leans chances net positive toward you, since usually it leans waaaay the other way.

IE: 600/3000 plus chance of going to CMP the day of paying our initial reg. fees, and it all goes downhill from there competition wise (and that is 33% better now than it was just 2 yrs. ago)…But, it is so much fun and it isn’t all about the robots, it is about changing lives, and accomplishing the seemingly impossible!

That last comment (about finding another game), wasn’t directed toward any person/team directly, nor FIRST, but just an “in general opinion comment.” (So please don’t anyone take it personally).

Sorry, I’ll quit selling and step off the soapbox…I’m just trying to rally the FRC Kingdom and help make it much louder.

Build Your Champion…Rally Your Kingdom…But, Let’s All Do It Together!

Do it for David Bowie…RIP (Dooont do doo dut dooont…Put on you red shoes and…dance the blues!)

#64

I’d say that level of precision and driving that distance has been shown before.

Not sure anyone is around that still remembers this, but we scored 2 tubes in autonomous in around 12 seconds here back in 2007 (Old camera tech took ~3s to lock on to the target as the rack was moved between matches).

In an offseason match:
910 Double Keeper at ARC

In an offseason practice match:
910 double keeper at marc

Returning very accurately to a known position is easy with wheel encoders as long as you don’t slip (the hard part). Considering the best high shooters will probably be able to make a 20 ft shot, they wont even have to drive more than 10 ft (x3) even at a slow 5 ft/s the driving ony takes 6 seconds. 9 s seems like enough time for decelerating, gathering, and shooting two balls.

Now I wont be so bold as to say it will happen all the time, but I think we will see it before the season is out.

#65

I’d guess that <=5 teams will solve it at Worlds

#66

OK, my last post in this thread for now. With all the “not going to happen much or often this year” responses in the thread, I realized something. (Not that I didn’t already know it, but I have to let them know it, and address it out loud).

Team 987 HighRollers and a few others, thank you for being only 2+ Hours or so away from us and allowing our around a long time low #, but small rural community combined 3 H.S.'s team to play both with you (not often enough, & not since 2011), and against you (way too often), year in, and year out, and for making us work so bloody hard to even attempt to compete with, and against you (and your friends…Yes pointing at Team 148), annually, at least once. They are the powerhouse team that we play with / against on a regular basis…actually we won LV Reg. with them in 2011 my very first event as a mentor w/ the team, and my youngest Son’s First FIRST Reg. Win in 2011 so I’m pretty partial to their competitiveness both local and international…They make our team dig deep and sometimes we actually rise to the occasion these days…and sometimes we reach and fail miserably, but we still reach.

If you had the pleasure last year, of playing w/ (against either of), those 2 teams and their friends (Their 4 bots against Your 3, then you know what I mean), had more than it’s outwardly & apparently known and seen disadvantages as the 148/987 drive team(s) relationship was very special & quite evident (2nd Regional they had played together in less than a month (The also won Dallas Reg.), and 987 could (and did), use 148’s Robin Tote Stacker Bot just as well as 148’s Batman could by then). First ones in RR that I saw that cleared the entire Tote field & backfield except the Totes that were upside down & against the front of the shelf. No litter, no totes just that 1 lonely empty litter container sitting in the backfield all by itself, nearly solid tote walls on the field.

They (987/148/Friends & Robin), together won their 2nd Regional of the year, but our Alliance didn’t go down easily, and all 6 teams went to CMP’s ours on-Carson 2015 (due to either Awards or Wild Cards)-I got to witness 987’s rise at CMP’s first hand on Hopper as an Official Scorer (then on to Einstein as 2015 Championship Finalists, & Championship Subdivision Winners).

But our team is better for the challenge they always are, and create.

I personally have only been with the (our), team in 6th year now, but have never seen an auto period, that they (987), have not fully “gone all-in for”, and pushed all their chips to the middle of the table and gone for all the auto points possible. They show us that it isn’t impossible…Year in, year out. And, we always have to work that much harder, whether playing with them, or playing against them.

But we never miss a chance to go to their home city and play in the Las Vegas Regionals. It’s sad that we are not going to be at AZ West Regional again at GC Univ. this year for your 3rd. Regional (LA Reg. LB, CA -Wk. 2, LV, NV Reg.-Wk. 5, & AZ West Reg.-Wk. 6, as we chose the AZ North Regional (Wk. 2) & the Las Vegas Regional (Wk. 5)-The 2 closest to home).

Some of our other friends in AZ that don’t get to often go to the LV Reg. can get to have some fun with you for a change at GC Univ. and we’ll see you in Week 5.

The AZ, CA, UT, NM, and CO teams among others that I would have to thank that inspire the Lowest # FRC team in the State of AZ in one way or another to produce over the years, would take a whole other posting as we have played with & against almost every team in the State and a many more than a few from outside of it, at 1 time or another over the years.

Some day before I die (and I’m going to stick around until it happens…I’m stubborn as can be), we’ll play with, instead of against de Famous Chezy Poofs (254)…We got closer last year by finally both being in Carson this last year (G.W. told me that was extremely rare over the years…usually we were always in a different Div.), but alas we finally were chosen for the same Division & didn’t get to play even 1 match with, but did play against each other in the Div. Quarters…Some day I say.

At least it was the 1 match on Carson I did get to see all week. Thanks to all those teams that inspire, and go above and beyond always reaching for the stars. Believe…2 will be doable.:smiley:

Count on it.

#67

I’m not sure why you guys are so worried about fouls. A foul is 5 points and successfully scoring the ball in auto is 10 points.

#68

For those urging to “take the foul”, remember that repeated fouling can result in a yellow card for egregious behavior. The yellow card doesn’t have to be specifically linked to a rule that specifies a yellow card for the violation.

#69

I can’t think of any scenario in which slightly overlapping the center line to grab a ball during autonomous could ever be considered “egregious” behavior. Maybe that’s why I’m not a head referee yet…

#70

See bolded.

#71

Question about repeated. In a match or in the competition? Since you’re only committing the foul once per match.

Brian

#72

“Repeated” can be for either. If a team is repeatedly committing a foul in order to score the extra auto point, they can be given the yellow - especially if it is deemed intentional. It’s a rule and we should strive to obey it…

Attempting to get the ball without breaking the rule is certainly fine… You just had better be good enough at it that 1) Your success rate overcome any fouls you might commit and 2) You don’t get carded.

#73

my question is not if a team will do 2 but if a team will do 3…