Upstate New York

Other FIRST-related Organizations
21

While I appreciate the funding aspect for statewide grants I just don’t see how this will be geographically realistic for FIRST as Districts need to fill in the less evenly distributed population areas of the US (and world). Nevada is always the area that comes to mind out West here. Are you really going to have Vegas and Reno teams travel 6 hours to events in the other city? Reno is 2 hours from Sacramento, while Las Vegas teams can get to San Diego, LA, and Phoenix faster than a drive to Reno.

Universal points system can’t come soon enough. There’s no other answer to getting everyone to Districts that also aligns with the regions FIRST wants to see.

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22

But NY is not alone in that case. Michigan and Texas are both very similar with geographic area and rural vs metropolitan distribution of teams, and both of them have succeeded with districts.

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23

Is that because there’s an overarching event planner team and not multiple? There’s a thing as nycfirst (NYSU, NYNY), sbpli-lifirst (SBPLI1 & 2), techvalleyfirst (NYTR), sunypoly (NYUT), upstatenyfirst (NYRO)

24

Both upstate NY and greater NYC area have FRC teams that would stand to benefit from districts.

Alligators do not have FRC teams that would stand to benefit from districts.

On a more serious note, I’m excited to see what leadership with all of upstate’s interests in mind can achieve. It has been a rough few years with 3 events always occurring on only 2 weekends, mostly back to back.

I wonder how our RD will have to split time week 3 this year between TVR & FLR? Friday at one event, Saturday at the other? I dont think we’ve yet had an RD responsible for two events occurring simultaneously geographically separate by 100s of miles. Sounds challenging.

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26

I hope you’re not insinuating that the individuals working on the logistical issues associated with the regional system in Upstate NY (many of whom you probably don’t even know) simply aren’t passionate enough or aren’t trying hard enough.

That kind of thinking downplays both the real challenges that exist in the state for teams and event staff, and any efforts that have been made so far.

Speaking more broadly, it seems like almost every NY-related thread that’s been posted here lately has turned into a district wish-list discussion. I think that speaks to just how pressing this issue is becoming both here in Western NY and in other areas of the Rust Belt (or “WOWW” as some call it) that are feeling the impacts of this regional land-lock.

Here’s hoping that these changes at the leadership level prompt some more open dialogue with teams about where we are headed in the next few years.

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27

Yup, and I’d love to see them! I’m just dubious that LI teams and Buffalo teams will be on board being in the same district when they’re seven+ hours apart even if you don’t hit traffic (and you always hit traffic).

NYC has a long history of overriding and overwhelming upstate in every decision-making process, just based on sheer numbers, and I’d want to see serious assurances that we don’t end up with a district where all but one event is a six-hour drive for half the people in it.

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28

Either way, we are driving at least 2 hours to any district event so it doesn’t matter either way for us.

…unless someone wants to organize a Binghamton district

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29

How many teams are in the rural areas?

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Screenshot_20191103-131820
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Around 6 teams all decently spread out. At least in my area

31

Just a note that map is a little outdated.

This is a map made last year, adding in this year (7 new rookies)
The areas that should gain would be Ustler County (from 1 to 2)
Rochester gains 2, Monroe County (from 16 to 18 )
NYC gains 3 and Nassau gain one more.

Unsure of the losses.

Heatmap%20of%20teams
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32

A thing people need to keep in mind with talking about, NY needs to do this or that.
It’s not a simple answer
100 of the roughly 185 teams lie on Long Island or in NYC.
Now would districts help this area? Highly probable, but many people think the answer is that simple, but then a matter to keep in mind is where in NYC can you put 3 or 4 events?
Where on Long Island?
How do you make a good spot for district champs?
How do you make it fair upstate as well.

Then you also need to remember some of these schools in NYC aren’t in the highest Income areas, there are teams that dont even attend champs when they get in, they can’t afford the bus, or the have to work with the department of education, which can be a hassle.

So for New York to go to districts there’s a lot of question marks, and you need every region to work together to find ways to tackle most of not all the issues. So Long Island, NYC and Upstate need to all work together, communicate and come together as a state, but that’s something that needs to be heard, and regions need to come together as a state before anything can happen.

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33

I like maps and numbers, so I added a couple extra numbers that helped me understand the distribution of teams across the state.

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34

2 districts.
Upstate | LI + NYC

CMP
NYUT | SBPLI

Events
NYRO, NYTR | NYNY, NYSU

35

Hi Aaron. I recommend you read these:

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36

HQ has already said they wouldn’t be fond of 2 districts within a state, unless you provide a well enough system and reason in place.

As for how districts operate if you look at the threads Justin linked it goes more in depth, even with many information provided over the years on how hypothetically a district system could potentially work in NY.
But you would need roughly 10 events just to cover the minimum floor.
A district championship would need to be somewhere between 50-70 teams.

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37

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound??

If a thread with the word New York in it started, does it have to turn into a district discussion??

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38

NY thread version of Gowin’s Law

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39

For the curious reader, it’s generally recommended to have around 1 event per 20 teams – each team gets 2 plays and events should be ideally <= 40 teams each.

Using Dom’s heatmap, we get a very very rough event list like so:

  • Rochester 1
  • Rochester 2
  • Tech Valley
  • Hudson Valley
  • New York City 1
  • New York City 2
  • New York City 3
  • Long Island 1
  • Long Island 2

We may also need a Central New York district event. After a year or two, we’d likely look to expand into having a Buffalo event, depending on growth numbers.

There are a ton of teams willing to host district events in upstate New York (I have personally spoken with them). Upstate districts are very close to a solved problem.

Additionally, the amount of inter-district play this would enable would be off the charts. NY would be a hot bed for interdistrict play - we are smack in the middle of Ontario, MAR, and NE, and within driving distance of CHS. Plus, there would be $1000 to the NY district organization for each interdistrict play.

I want to emphasize that this isn’t about the money to me. It’s not about the sponsors. It’s about the kids. I could ramble off a host of teams full of kids that deserved to attend the world championship, but fell short due to the pitfalls of the regional system - 2791 2016, 3624 2017, 1796 2017, 639 2018, 6300 2019, 1507 2019… And those are just the teams I saw in person.

Most of you have heard me ramble about this for a long time by now, and I don’t really even know who this post is supposed to be for. I just know that a NY district would be such a better experience for the kids.

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40

In FiM, we found “If you build it, they will come.”

Now it certainly didn’t hurt to have state grants for new teams. But, prior to Districts, almost all the teams were in SE Michigan (including our friends in Toledo and going up to Saginaw) and in West Michigan, with a few pockets elsewhere. One of the initial district events in 2009 was Traverse City. I volunteered there the first year, and it was a local media event. It was covered on TV, newspapers, radio, etc. We had a lot of interest from people in the area just coming to see what it was.

Since then we’ve added several events in the less-populated northern areas of the state - 2 in the UP, 2 in Alpena, Gaylord, and some in the mid portion of the state (Shepherd, Big Rapids).

When you give an area an opportunity to play locally, you are much more likely to get more local teams forming. Yes, there has to be financial assistance. But there has to be access as well.

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41

To build on that
I have competed on Long Island for years
Many teams go one and done, they never get to experience building upon what they saw other teams do at a regional, reiterating, modifying and trying new things.

That’s the great thing with multiple events is making changes, the kids do the engineering process, learn by example, by failure, by testing.

2018, my team had a design, we thought was solid, went to CNY, immediately found problems we didn’t get to fully test in the shop.( no bag also helps this.) Lucky for us we got our ticket punched, so the next two events were more worry free because we already are in Detroit. When we went to FLR, we made a new intake, modified our drive base a bit, and played around with a lot more autos. Come Buckeye, we have a new elevator, an even more improved intake, and are fine tuning motion pathing.

This was thanks to being able to see what teams did, talk to their programmers, having people like Justin, and other mentors from other teams offer ideas, advice or help after we broke.
The kids kept pushing themselves, we had a little over 9 days in between each competition and the kids still wanted to make a redesign and improve between each one, even if it meant potentially failing and not doing as well at an event.

That’s what the programs about, it’s about inspiring the kids, THATS why many of us mentor, for the kids, to teach, to watch them get excited as we once did in their shoes.

Why make it harder and more expensive? Why make it more work, why travel further, and even limit being able to meet more teams.

Many teams in NYC and LI say they would miss not being able to compete with international teams in districts, and while that is a loss.

They would also get to see more teams in their state, Long Island/NYC can easily have teams coming from all around tristate to compete, and meeting new people they may have not otherwise.

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