Can we assume this is true? I’m not sure. Rogers v. Koons showed that selling a sculpture based on a picture is infringement, but in this case, WFN is not selling anything (except an ad, which might be a point of contention). It’s always the same ad, too, which seems to suggest that the money from that ad is not for commercial reasons, but merely to pay for web hosting.
I’ve been keeping a close eye on this thread, but have been trying not to post too much on it.
One of the many reasons why TBA is amazing is the ability for uploaders to voluntarily submit their match videos for an event. They can do it both on the site and it’s even easier to do so on this Google Doc, all they have to do is provide the link for the playlist and someone else will take care of sorting all of it. These videos are still hosted on the uploader’s channel so if a user clicks on one of the embedded videos, it goes straight to the uploader’s video page.
EDIT: Also found that there is a Facebook Group for coordinating TBA match footage as well.
One of the new awards last year was the FRC New Media Award, which “will recognize a team’s creative use of digital media and devices to create and distribute content that is used to promote the team’s profile, achievements, and outreach, along with the FIRST mission.” 15% of the grading for this award is Engagement, with questions asked such as “How did you track the results?”. If you look at the winning submission last year from Panteras](http://panterasup.com/en/resources/docs/file/171-media-and-technology-innovation-award-2013), one of the main ways they did this was providing statistics of views on their YouTube Channel. However, if their footage is stolen from them and posted elsewhere, their recordable reach of their content will decrease. This could hurt a team that’s in the running for this award.
And I also just want to put this out there: What if I go download all of WFN’s footage and then post it on my own personal account somewhere, and start advertising it like crazy on Chief Delphi as “Robotics Videos Online”. That would be perfectly fine under WFN’s beliefs, correct? (assuming everything else is disregarded)
That’s my $0.02 for now. I’ll see if I can dig up any more change in my pockets later.
So, you’re saying that if I take code from Microsoft and put it into an open source library that’s ok because I’m not gaining anything and Microsoft won’t come after me?
I worded that poorly, gain isn’t important it just makes it more bothersome to me. Passing off someone else’s content as your own is the core problem.
And on top of any legal issues… It’s just a slimeball move. Adam, you’re being a slimeball. Stop it.
You shouldn’t need proof of ownership from anyone. Are they yours? Did someone else make them? Don’t rip them and re-upload them.
I guarantee you if you had taken the proper channels in order to receive explicit permission from the owners of the videos that you could rip them from their original source (this is apparently against some terms of service? I’m no lawyer) and re-host them, things would’ve been okay. But this isn’t what you’re doing. You’re stealing from people. I can’t go on to YouTube and steal my favorite One Direction music video and re-upload it somewhere else so I can serve ads on it. I didn’t make it, I wasn’t given explicit permission to use it, and I’m clearly profiting off of it.
Also, we did suggest a solution. Several times, in fact. Need another solution? Feel free to email me, I know how to drag and drop a few videos to a trash can. Is it on a server? Perfect. Here’s my ssh public keys. I’ll login and remove them for you.
It doesn’t take a programmer to make this right.
Ads for free web hosting is exchanging a service for ads, as opposed to directly getting money to pay for web hosting. It’s still an ad, they’re still profiting off of it.
Grah, this is exactly like the Mythbusters post nuggetsyl made on the first page! No, this would not be okay because Microsoft is a commercial entity and by releasing their code you are damaging the revenue they get from selling their products. FIRST videos are different because there is negligible amounts of monetary income involved.
Incorrect. If I take code from a non commercial product and put it in an open source project it’s the same situation. I’m taking someone else’s work and claiming it as my own.
I think the way TBA works is great. The only issue is that there is no assurance that those videos won’t disappear if individual user accounts are deleted/banned for some reason (I think there are already a few dead links on TBA).
If the community could store/manage the content, it would help safeguard against that possibility.
Access to the analytics for page/load views per video is definitely possible. YouTube already does it (sometimes). Would teams be fine with those statistics, versus the ‘channel views’ that the Panteras used?
I completely agree. What if TBA starts a Dropbox/Box.com account where uploaders can voluntarily submit their match videos (similar to what FIRST did with the Dean’s HW Submissions this year), in case they want their footage to be saved if for some reason their account is deleted in the future. If their account is deleted, then TBA would be able to upload the videos on their own (since they got the okay from the uploader) and thus they’re saved. You can’t force uploaders to preserve their footage if they don’t want to, after all, it is their’s. But if they want to, they’ll have the option.
It is extremely simple for a team to access their YouTube Channel’s analytics page and get all kinds of statistics. But let’s say a team has 90 videos that have been taken and uploaded on WFN’s account. How would that team access the view count/minute watched data for those videos, and/or include it in the graph such as Panteras has done? This will also take away greatly from the number of page visits their channel in general receives. Why should teams have to compromise for a service that they provide by recording and posting the footage?
True; I should have been more verbose in my previous statement. The other critical part to this issue is that it is arguably used for educational purposes while also being non-damaging to the original copyright holder.
Nonprofits have goals that can be hindered with the theft of intellectual property, but downloading non-commercial code to teach a class (assuming this teaching does not damage the copyright holder) is fair game under fair use.
It is damaging the copyright holder though, the copyright holder can no longer create statistics on the use of the videos and the videos are being shown without credit to the copyright holder.
And so the copyright holders would be able to stand to sue. However, the case that they can no longer create statistics on the usage of videos seems to be weaker than the case that these videos are a valuable educational resource (as I have gathered from the other posts in this thread; attribution also has no place in Fair Use law).
It seems like this would be the easiest, most workable solution.
Unless someone wants to go the extra mile and provide a means of letting teams easily gain access to all the analytics that they want, embedding and a backup database (firstvideoarchive?) for archiving purposes seems the way to go.
Now that I understand the situation a little more, I do agree that regardless of legality, there should be an etiquette established where if you want to use someone else’s match footage:
- ask and comply with their requirements for using it
or
- embed
And hopefully we can put together a comprehensive archive that everyone is willing to put their content in it (for the sake of the community).
As they are already publicly available your case of “educational resource” is shaky at best. Allow me to simplify this issue, you’re grasping at straws.
People, calm down. I am giving everyone 24 hours to think. I will reopen thread tomorrow.
Good morning and welcome to another day of FIRST. I have opened this thread hoping that civilized conversation can take place. WE ARE FIRST! What is said here reflects who we are and what we represent please take that into account while posting. I hope that I can check this thread during the day and see positive, respectful posts. We will not all agree on everything but we can still be respectful of each other.
Thanks 
FYI, to those unaware, from the ‘Help Build the Archive!’ thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1365843&postcount=35
WatchFIRSTNow has been gracious enough to remove the footage that I wanted to be taken down, and I’m sure if FiM or anyone else wants their videos deleted from WFN’s account, all they have to do is ask. Thank you, WatchFIRSTNow, for complying with our request.
That said, I would recommend the permanent closure of this thread. These posts are full of harsh insults and personal attacks, and I doubt anything positive will come of it in the future other than pointless arguments over ‘facts’ the people can’t agree on.
However, if anyone has **constructive **suggestions for how to improve WFN or archiving in general, I’m sure it would be gladly appreciated, but perhaps just PM those in charge or start a new separate thread for it instead of continuing this black hole.
Thank you to everyone who provided their opinion in the prior posts.
OK folks, nothing to see here, just move along now.
I just love happy endings
I think one incident in a larger situation was addressed and corrected, but there’s still several more to go
As someone who wandered in to this discussion without much prior knowledge, what is the current overall picture, and what are all the other issues?
OK… I tried to avoid commenting on this whole thing, I really did. At this point I need to say something. Many of you go through engineering school, and would be devastated if somebody took everything you worked hard to create and put it under their name. Well, I went to film school, and I can tell you that what is happening when you steal someone’s video (youtube or not, educational or not) you are doing the same thing as someone who would steal an item or idea an engineer created.
As said by Nirvash this is a HUGE issue. I generate viewer statistics on everything I create, then use these when applying for jobs. Users generally poke around a bit on my page if they like something on it, which generates more user interaction with my videos and in turn gets me more exposure.
While I applaud people for donating their footage, and WatchFIRSTNow for removing the footage they basically stole, some people make a living on film and it shouldn’t be assumed that everyone wants their footage included.
The next time you steal a video take a minute to realize that you stole from a human being, you took their work, put your name on it, and went on with your day while they are stuck wondering why they are losing viewership.
-Kelli