Volunteering at an event you have a team at?

FIRST General Forum
#1

What are some experiences that people have being a mentor for a team, and then volunteering at the event that they compete at?

I’m seriously considering applying to become a ref next year (I think I’d be awesome at the job myself), and aside from the obvious conflict of interest problems (which could be worked around by having me on break when my team plays), would there be logistical issues such as the team asking you questions (unrelated to the game) etc?

Just wondering what folks experiences with this are and if I’m completely bonkers for wanting to do it :slight_smile:

#2

I volunteered at the Virginia Regional. It was a great experience and I had a lot of fun. However, in hindsight, I would’ve much rather been with my team so that I could help them out when they ran into problems. I felt fairly useless whenever issues with my team arose because I couldn’t always drop what I was doing to go help them.

#3

Ooh boy.

May I suggest that you start by reffing at an event that your team most definitely is NOT at? This will give you a chance to find out if you’re really up for the job, without the added pressure of having to call your own team correctly. Being a ref is harder than it looks.

I got my start reffing last year, at an event that neither my current team nor the team I was on in high school was at. That’s where the head ref for the regional both teams call home (where I was planning to inspect) told me that if someone flaked, he’d be looking for me… and then I heard that the ref allotment had expanded, so I figured I’d better volunteer before I was “recruited”. And at the local offseason, I didn’t step back fast enough and found myself the head ref. THAT was pressure!

Oh, and did I mention that taking a break when my team was up wasn’t an option last year? In those cases, you’ve got one option: Call the game straight.

This year, I’m reffing two events–one had my current team, one has my former team. At both, I simply turn in the conflict of interest form and inform the head ref. This year, it’s simple enough: If there is a potential conflict, you work the other side of the field. In most years, that isn’t an option, so break it is.

As far as your team asking questions, unrelated to the game (or not), my best advice would be to tell them upfront that you’re reffing, so chit-chat is going to be heavily discouraged.

#4

In my (limited) experience, being on break when your team plays probably isn’t an option (what if they make the playoffs?)

Only you can answer the question of whether you’re comfortable refereeing when your team is on the field. This includes not letting your biases affect anything (in either direction!), not being able to give any advice or help to your team while on referee duty, and being stuck out on the field if there are any problems or issues. If you truly think you can handle it, feel free to volunteer, just be upfront with your potential conflict of interests.

I refereed an event last year with my former team, which I still feel pretty close to, in attendance. I refereed some sporting events at college with friends involved, so it wasn’t a huge deal for me - although I did make one call that tilted a game in their favor (I made 100% sure it was correct…)

#5

Last year was my first year volunteering. I have been a Robot Inspector, Ref, and Scorekeeper. In the process, you learn a lot that can help your team.

Fortunately, I am not a lead mechanical or programming mentor, so when there are problems, there are other people to go to.

Regarding Ref’ing, there is usually an extra ref or two, and you cycle so each person gets a break every so often. Last year, if your team was on the field, there is not a problem getting the extra ref to take your spot for one match. This year, I just swapped sides (ref’ed the blue side if my team was on the red side). Lots of the Ref’s are related to a team, so we are used to dealing with the potential conflict.

Pro’s of Ref’ing or other “field” volunteer:

  1. Get to watch the game from the field.

Con’s:
2) You are not with the “team” in the stands.
3) You get tunnel vision (watch your area of the field), and may not be able to watch your team’s bot.

FYI: At the Regionals I was at, they fed the volunteers.

#6

I thought that it was standard to feed the volunteers.

#7

Pretty certain that it is. Usually breakfast and lunch at a minimum; dinner would depend on what role you’re in and how late you’re there.

#8

I volunteer at some events in New England every year, I try to help out my team when I can giving them ideas on strategy and what not. At the same time its important that the team knows that on the field you are one of the field staff. In precaution if my team needs help I will help them but if it is during a match or a high stress situation I try to send in someone other than myself to handle the situation.

In my own opinion I enjoy going to events I know teams at because its awesome seeing their robots do their thing.

#9

As a lead que I tend to hassel my team when they run late. Other than that there are no real issues.

#10

Volunteering for an event while your team is there is completely doable - in fact, most volunteers at events are there with their team as well! The specific role you volunteer for will define your interaction with your team. For example, being a ref mean’s you’re field-side the entire time, and can’t really drop by the pit to pitch in if the team needs help. In fact, you’ll barely have time to interact with them at all, as the ref’s often have pow-wows by the scoring station between matches, and even when not the drive team should have other things on their mind (like prepping for the match or getting the robot off the field quickly). On the other side, being an inspector means you’re in the pits at all times, and if your team needs help you can usually make it to their pit to lend a hand. Generally, any field-side role is going to keep you away from the team, while any role in the pits will free you up for plenty of interaction.

Many VC’s I know hesitate to slot team mentors as refs at events their team is at - the conflict of interest potential is just too high. This can change as the VC gets to know the volunteer, though - once they know that you’ll handle yourself correctly on the field, they’ll be more willing to slot you at the event. One of the mentors I work with went through that, and is now a ref at pretty much all of the events we go to (actually, I get the VC to double-assign him as an inspector so I get him an extra half day on Thursdays :D) In fact, there was one year, at one event, where he ended up reffing during elims while our team was on the field… and called the match-deciding penalty against our team. It was 100% the correct call, and it dropped us out of elims for that event. If you don’t think you can handle that situation appropriately, then avoid being a ref at an event where your team is!

#11

I have been both Robot Inspector (2014) and Judge (2015) at events my team participated in. Volunteering at a regional is a rewarding and energizing experience, and I recommend everyone do it. The view from the field is very nice, but there are some things to be aware of when you are affiliated with a competing team.

Dealing with the team affiliation when inspecting is fairly easy. Notify event staff and head inspector of your team affiliation when you volunteer, remind them at the competition, and don’t inspect your own robot. Pretty much it. Ethical behavior when inspecting other robots is table stakes.

Judging is a bit more complicated. Obviously you fill out the team affiliation disclosure form. Prior to the regional I had been told by previous judges as well as regional personnel that a judge affiliated with a competing team does not participate in any discussion in which their team is a factor. It isn’t just that you can’t talk about your team, this is saying you can’t talk at all unless and until your team is out of the discussion.

This means you can hear something negative about another team that you know to be factually incorrect and you can’t correct it (helping that team, hurting your own). You can hear something attributed to one team but that was actually done by another team (neither of which is your team) and you can’t correct it. If someone asks a question about the game itself (independent of any team) while discussing an award that your team is a candidate for you can’t answer the question even if no other judge in the room knows the answer. I’m not trying to subtly imply that judging is rife with these kinds of problems or that misstatements aren’t caught and corrected by other judges. The jungle largely self-corrects. I am making these points because I personally found it very difficult to sit on my hands and wait for someone else to notice, even when speaking up would only be to the detriment of my own team.

There is a difference between team affiliation as a mentor and affiliation as a sponsor or employee of a sponsor (as it happens, I am both). In my one and only judging experience, the restrictions applied to a mentor of a competing team do not apply to employees of sponsors of competing teams. There were no restrictions in that regard. Trying to do so would have shrunk the volunteer pool for our regional, so while you can make an equivalence argument there are practical considerations that are carrying the day.

I understand the rules and fully support the hard line approach to avoiding even the perception of bias in judging. I have nothing but praise for my Judge Advisor. There is no good alternative short of disallowing volunteers who are in any way affiliated with competing teams. Which again would likely decimate the volunteer pool.

I enjoy volunteering and am sure I will volunteer again, including judging. However I don’t think I will volunteer to judge at an event where my team is participating. I enjoy spending the time with the team and the complications of not being able to fully participate as a judge add up to me taking myself out of that situation in the future by picking a different regional to volunteer at (assuming I can make the time).

#12

One thing I will say: At the event I’ve reffed at so far this year, only once did my team come under discussion (that I know about) from the refs. As soon as that discussion started, I simply went to the other end of the field to check on prematch setup–figured that if there was something important I needed to know about, or if I needed to say something, I’d hear about it–and as I recall I made some comment about recusing myself.

By the way, I’ve also inspected where my team was competing. One of my team members saw me heading for another team’s pit and asked for inspection. I simply directed him to the inspection station to get an inspector assigned, as I was already on a different call. (And that’s the proper procedure anyways–at least at that event it was.)

#13

Volunteering as a Tech Inspector is a great way to go. You never have to inspect your own team, and if there is ever any doubt about another team’s infraction you can simply defer to another inspector or refer it to the lead tech inspector. Teams generally appreciate being inspected by someone who knows not just the rules, but the build experience, on a personal level.

Likewise there are dozens of other volunteer opportunities that simply do not present even the slightest potential for a perceived conflict of interest.

Reffing and judging, well… it isn’t really the conflict of interest so much as the possible perception of a conflict. I have never judged at an event that my team was competing at, but I have worked on judging panels where a few judges do have affiliations with teams at the event. I have to say that in every case that the affiliated judges not only declared their affiliations, but remained silent whenever their team was in any way associated with an award under consideration. As a judge, who has been in the room, I have to say that team-affiliated judges and FIRST managed the conflict of interest exceptionally well. It simply was not an issue. I can appreciate, however, for those who aren’t in the room, that the conflict of interest could be perceived as a greater issue than it was.

Personally, I’d rather have a great ref with a well-managed conflict of interest than a less skilled ref with no potential conflict… but ideally we’d have a great ref with no perceived potential conflict.

A kind of wishy-washy response… but hopefully a rational one,

Jason

#14

This was the best advice I saw in this thread. I’ve now done queuing and refereeing at an event my team attended. That’s my personal line right now. I’m comfortable treating them like any other team on the field, so I was fine taking that role. I suggest that you volunteer if you can say the same, and consider a different role if that’s not quite true.

Only you know your comfort level with this, but I advise against banking on the possibility of switching sides of the field at critical times or any strategy like that. Are you comfortable making a decision that will cost ANY team a regional win (or an award for judging)? That’s really the issue you need to figure out. Best of luck!

#15

I was a rookie robot inspector this year at one of the regionals my team went to. I was also the drive coach at that same regional. Since my team spent most of Thursday fixing up the robot with withholding allowance parts, I was free to do a ton of robot inspecting on Thursday. The couple of practice matches that my team DID get to on Thursday I just had somebody else fill in for me. Since inspections were 98% done by Friday morning, I spent all of Friday and Saturday coaching my team, except for a small portion of Saturday after my team’s last match where I had to stand by the field exit and tell teams to go get weighed. Whenever I was in “inspector mode” I had my inspector hat on and I covered up my team shirt with a FIRST vest (except Thursday when I just wore a volunteer shirt). I took the hat and vest off whenever I was coaching.

If you want to still be able to do things with your team, volunteer for a role that has you able to work in shifts with other volunteers of the same role, that way you can still be with your team for portions of the competition.

#16

The Ref portion isn’t in me, but have only so far volunteered at events my team was present and competing in a few times in the machine shop. Then last year signed up to just tend the practice field in Las Vegas (often help assemble and disassemble the field also).

Well, we arrived last year (my eldest Son was FTAA so we arrived together), and set up the field Wednesday night. Thursday morning I was helping set up the practice field elements, get the sign up sheets ready, and that lasted a whole 5 minutes…Then I was collared & elevated to Field Supervisor. Given a crew, lucky I knew the game. Most of the crew didn’t, but we met, gave them a quick rundown, and we went at it. (I do fairly well supervising people, so it was a good fit).

Being that close to the field gives anyone a new appreciation for the game, the FTA and FTAA, and all the others that make the show go on, and allow it to go live, then you are in it up to your neck.

While you never forget your team, there are not problems w/ the element of conflict of interests…You are flat too busy for any of that stuff (and there are plenty of others around to check any actions that would lean that way). You do your job, and do not ever play favorites either.

The game required all outbound balls to get returned very quickly back to the closest HP of that color alliance, and it doesn’t matter what team that was, or whether my team was playing against them or not, they were returned to each alliance as quickly and safely as humanly possible. (Half the time, I didn’t really notice my team was even on the field until the match was over…I was just too busy! And the rest of the time my team in the stands were sitting right behind me, so we communicated often).

You pay attention to your job (but you must understand when wearing that FIRST Volunteer shirt, you personally & directly represent FIRST, and you do the best job for FIRST as an organization, that you can in performing that job…Period.

I personally enjoy the volunteer duties tremendously no matter where I am put (in any organization), but I really enjoyed that position the most so far. I was closer to most of the action than the students behind the glass. Though not the Refs or HP’s.

And for a near sighted guy…It was perfect. It was a job, I was pretty sore for a week as it was also a real workout, and the nights were a lot shorter than normal, as it was virtually non-stop Wednesday afternoon, until late Saturday night when the truck pulled away w/ the field.

In the future I want to try one when not with the team also. It is fairly hard not cheering outright for the students you directly mentor…LOL. (At least I tried not to personally). So, I just cheer for them all.:smiley:

#17

I have been an FLL Judge for years with no issue because I have no other involvement in FLL.

I help start Team 11 in 1996 and still mentor programming and now CNC for them.

I have been a CSA/FTAA for several years at the district event we host and nearby on/off season events Team 11 attends.

I do not care who wins the competitions. I have said that many times on ChiefDelphi and I mean it. I have gone all out as CSA to patch up a competitor in quarters, semis and finals even if it means trouble for Team 11.

My job is to be impartial and deliver the service expected of my volunteer function as best as possible. If your team or you can not manage this duplicity without some morale or ethical impass best to think it over before doing it.

So far it has not been an issue for me. Nothing I have done was unusual for/against them. Certain jobs like Judge/Referee I could see the moment being heated if things goes against your team.

One year we had some match replays to consider and there was obvious interest by each team (including Team 11) for that to go one way or the other. I told the FTA, removed myself from the decision and let them figure it out. The match was replayed to the same outcome because often the better designs/better drivers/stronger alliance still had those strengths to pull on regardless of luck.

#18

My team has been directly affected twice by refs who favored their own team. While this is very rare it is extremely frustrating.

The more common problems are a ref being harder on their own team than other teams and being distracted by watching their own team instead of what they are supposed to be watching. I have seen this many times.

I enjoy reffing but I won’t were my team is competing. I prefer to be an inspector when my team is playing.

#19

I cannot get enough robot inspectors without having volunteers that are present with their team at that event. I have a few rules for inspectors. Number one is you may not inspect your own team. I personally extend this to teams I have become very close to (that number is growing each year). In other words I won’t inspect ‘friends’. I ask inspectors to present their team affiliation to the team their are inspecting prior to starting an inspection. If the team has any concern that they will not receive a fair evaluation, they can ask for another inspector, no questions asked. I also ask that inspectors that can’t be objective (due to a previous interaction or team affiliation) ask another inspector to take over that team’s inspection.
Teams depend on inspectors, refs and judges to be impartial, and I want that to continue. Additionally, we want your team to succeed. It kills us to deliver bad news and we will try everything to get you on the field for every match.

#20

I have judged numerous events where my team is competing. Conflict of Interest form goes in to Judge Advisor and if 125 is up for an award I’m quiet during that award. This is pretty standard practice. This weekend I’m the Judge Advisor for Northeastern where we are also competing and I don’t expect any issues.

The biggest downside to me is not being able to help my team at events.