Warning: Don't Touch Your Robot

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Andy Baker, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/29/99 9:46 AM MST

I’m posting this message to clear up what happened during
the semifinal match between team 292’s alliance (team 292:
Diamler-Chrysler Western HS, team 45: Delphi-Kokomo HS, and team
235: Diamler-Chrysler Southeastern HS) and team 71’s alliance
(teams 71, 85, and 27).

During the match, 292’s HP accidentally grabbed his robot’s
“snout” when he was loading floppies into its basket. He
leaned toward the robot too far, and was losing his balance.
Grabbing the robot was his way of catching himself from falling.
The referee called this violation, and we were therefore DQ’ed.

In my opinion, it was the right call.

BUT, I do have some concerns:

  1. I have seen other HPs accidentally touch their robots,
    escpecially when loading floppies. This is incidental contact,
    but it should be called. Contact such as brushing a basket’s
    netting and contacting the basket’s “rim” while dunking
    a floppy are both violations.

  2. If a team is DQ’ed, then they should be powered down ASAP.
    This may seem minor, but it isn’t. During this match, the
    power was not disabled, and therefore we didn’t know of the
    violation. There was some major battling (us vs. 71 for puck
    control and 292 vs. 27 for raising floppies) occuring AFTER
    the violation occured. Luckily neither 71’s or 27’s robots
    were damaged during this time, or the mistake would have been
    monumental. Actually 71 fell over at the end, but since
    their robot is so robust, they took the fall with no problems
    (at least none that I know of)… Also, many students (and
    adults) on our alliance had a very tough time adjusting to the
    disqualification, escpecilly after we thought we had won the
    match and semi-final round. Handling those emotions was very
    tough. It would’ve been easier to deal with if 292’s robot was
    powered down and we hadn’t thought that our alliance won the match.

Anyway, those are my thoughts… any opinions on this?

All in all, we had a great time working with all of the
teams at the Midwest Regional, especially teams 292 and 235
(You guys ROCK!).

See ya in Florida!
Andy B.

BTW, team 292… a rookie team! Wow!

2

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 3/29/99 10:26 AM MST

In Reply to: Warning: Don’t Touch Your Robot posted by Andy Baker on 3/29/99 9:46 AM MST:

Thank you very much for the clarification. I was sitting in the stands
and had really no idea why you lost. I figured it was due to a DQ but
I wasn’t sure why.

Here are my opinions:

I completely agree with your points (1) and (2). When we practice, we
really stress to our Human Player the importance of not touching the
robot or stepping out of bounds, because we feel that any type of rule
infraction should be enforced. The only change to point(2) is that I
think the match should be ended immediately in the elimination rounds.

BUT (there’s always a but), if the situation occurred as you described,
I don’t know if I completely agree with the DQ call. In the rule book,
it states that a human player is allowed to touch a robot for reasons of
personal protection. If the human player was losing his/her balance and
was about to fall on the robot, it would be foolish not to grab the robot
as the human player would surely be more likely to get hurt falling on
the robot than touching it. However, if the human player was doing
something questionable that caused him/her to lose balance, then perhaps
it was the human player’s fault and the DQ was warranted. This is a
tricky issue. I wish I would have seen the infraction.

: I’m posting this message to clear up what happened during
: the semifinal match between team 292’s alliance (team 292:
: Diamler-Chrysler Western HS, team 45: Delphi-Kokomo HS, and team
: 235: Diamler-Chrysler Southeastern HS) and team 71’s alliance
: (teams 71, 85, and 27).

: During the match, 292’s HP accidentally grabbed his robot’s
: “snout” when he was loading floppies into its basket. He
: leaned toward the robot too far, and was losing his balance.
: Grabbing the robot was his way of catching himself from falling.
: The referee called this violation, and we were therefore DQ’ed.

: In my opinion, it was the right call.

: BUT, I do have some concerns:

: 1. I have seen other HPs accidentally touch their robots,
: escpecially when loading floppies. This is incidental contact,
: but it should be called. Contact such as brushing a basket’s
: netting and contacting the basket’s “rim” while dunking
: a floppy are both violations.

: 2. If a team is DQ’ed, then they should be powered down ASAP.
: This may seem minor, but it isn’t. During this match, the
: power was not disabled, and therefore we didn’t know of the
: violation. There was some major battling (us vs. 71 for puck
: control and 292 vs. 27 for raising floppies) occuring AFTER
: the violation occured. Luckily neither 71’s or 27’s robots
: were damaged during this time, or the mistake would have been
: monumental. Actually 71 fell over at the end, but since
: their robot is so robust, they took the fall with no problems
: (at least none that I know of)… Also, many students (and
: adults) on our alliance had a very tough time adjusting to the
: disqualification, escpecilly after we thought we had won the
: match and semi-final round. Handling those emotions was very
: tough. It would’ve been easier to deal with if 292’s robot was
: powered down and we hadn’t thought that our alliance won the match.

: Anyway, those are my thoughts… any opinions on this?

: All in all, we had a great time working with all of the
: teams at the Midwest Regional, especially teams 292 and 235
: (You guys ROCK!).

: See ya in Florida!
: Andy B.

: BTW, team 292… a rookie team! Wow!

3

Posted by Jeff Burch, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Delco Electronics Systems.

Posted on 3/29/99 11:06 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Warning: Don’t Touch Your Robot posted by Chris on 3/29/99 10:26 AM MST:

: Chris Wrote …
:…
: BUT (there’s always a but), if the situation occurred as you described,
: I don’t know if I completely agree with the DQ call. In the rule book,
: it states that a human player is allowed to touch a robot for reasons of
: personal protection. If the human player was losing his/her balance and
: was about to fall on the robot, it would be foolish not to grab the robot
: as the human player would surely be more likely to get hurt falling on
: the robot than touching it. However, if the human player was doing
: something questionable that caused him/her to lose balance, then perhaps
: it was the human player’s fault and the DQ was warranted. This is a
: tricky issue. I wish I would have seen the infraction.

The question of personal safety was discussed. The referees decided that
by leaning into the interaction zone the student was putting himself at risk
as opposed to the robot doing something that put the human player at risk.
Andy and I are teammates and I agree that the referees made the correct call.
The fact that this rule was not strictly enforced doesn’t mean it should not
have been enforced here, but it did make it more dificult for the students
to deal with.

I don’t agree that the match should be ended in the eliminations when a
team is disqualified. Although it’s not very likely, there is a chance
the other alliance may also do something that disquilifies them before
the match is over.

Jeff Burch

4

Posted by Chris, Coach on team #308, Walled Lake Monster, from Walled Lake Schools and TRW Automotive Electronics.

Posted on 3/29/99 1:10 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Warning: Don’t Touch Your Robot posted by Jeff Burch on 3/29/99 11:06 AM MST:

As you clarified it, I agree with the DQ decision.

Also, very good point about the double DQ. I didn’t think of that.
What would happen in this case? I don’t believe this is in the rule
book. Would the match be replayed?

: : Chris Wrote …
: :…
: : BUT (there’s always a but), if the situation occurred as you described,
: : I don’t know if I completely agree with the DQ call. In the rule book,
: : it states that a human player is allowed to touch a robot for reasons of
: : personal protection. If the human player was losing his/her balance and
: : was about to fall on the robot, it would be foolish not to grab the robot
: : as the human player would surely be more likely to get hurt falling on
: : the robot than touching it. However, if the human player was doing
: : something questionable that caused him/her to lose balance, then perhaps
: : it was the human player’s fault and the DQ was warranted. This is a
: : tricky issue. I wish I would have seen the infraction.

: The question of personal safety was discussed. The referees decided that
: by leaning into the interaction zone the student was putting himself at risk
: as opposed to the robot doing something that put the human player at risk.
: Andy and I are teammates and I agree that the referees made the correct call.
: The fact that this rule was not strictly enforced doesn’t mean it should not
: have been enforced here, but it did make it more dificult for the students
: to deal with.

: I don’t agree that the match should be ended in the eliminations when a
: team is disqualified. Although it’s not very likely, there is a chance
: the other alliance may also do something that disquilifies them before
: the match is over.

: Jeff Burch

5

Posted by Peter VanWylen, Student on team #107, Team ROBOTICS, from Holland Christian High School and Metal Flow Corp…

Posted on 3/30/99 8:37 PM MST

In Reply to: Warning: Don’t Touch Your Robot posted by Andy Baker on 3/29/99 9:46 AM MST:

: 1. I have seen other HPs accidentally touch their robots,
: escpecially when loading floppies. This is incidental contact,
: but it should be called. Contact such as brushing a basket’s
: netting and contacting the basket’s ‘rim’ while dunking
: a floppy are both violations.

I disagree. Rule P20 says that incedental contact is okay. How can you say that they should call something that the rules indicate as ‘okay?’

The purpose of the rule is so that the HP doesn’t change, fix, right a fallen robot, or anything like that. It doesn’t disallow light, quick, accidental, incedental contact.

-Peter

6

Posted by Andy Baker, Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/31/99 7:05 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: Warning: Don’t Touch Your Robot posted by Peter VanWylen on 3/30/99 8:37 PM MST:

: I disagree. Rule P20 says that incedental contact is okay.
: How can you say that they should call something that the
: rules indicate as ‘okay?’

Good point. I must’ve looked past P20. Here’s what P20 states:

P20: ‘Robots are allowed to extend into the player station interaction
zone. Incidental contact within the interaction zone is acceptable.’

I was basing my opinion on V15 and V18. Here they are:

V15: ‘For safety reasons, no part of a robot may touch the human players.
if this occurs due to an intentional act, the alliance causing the
safety hazard will be disqualified.’

V18: ‘During a match, no team member may intentionally touch any robot,
except for reasons of personal safety. If this happens, the alliance
will be disqualified.’

That seems pretty clear cut to me. I can’t see FIRST letting us have
more contact with the robots… If that would happen, OSHA might have
more of a chance to tighten up the entire competition and pit structure
due to safety issues.

It looks like we need clarification between ‘incidental’ and
‘intentional’ contact.

I still stand by my previous post.

By the way, Peter, I think team 107 is a class act. You have a very
impressive robot (everyone needs to check out your super-cool wheels)
and I enjoy working with your team when we have been matched together.
Best of luck in Orlando.

Regards,
Andy B.