We have to organize to win

FIRST General Forum
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Posted by Nisha at 2/1/2001 6:40 PM EST

Engineer on team #303, Vulgens Heroes, from Bridgwater -Raritan HS and Bihler.

Our team has seriously considered a national system of uniformity. We feel that in order for this game to be played at maximum capacity is to share all data at one central location. A exchange of information is important. Also we want to rate each robot on there design and preformance. Robots will be designed to do the same function and the robot that can do it most efficiently should do that task. And instead of arguing about in the 2 minute pre-match period. A rating system will allow us to establish that. And take up less time. If you have any questions either respond or e-mail us at : bihler303-owner@yahoogroups.com

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Posted by Matt Ryan at 2/1/2001 9:15 PM EST

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and Gillette.

In Reply to: We have to organize to win
Posted by Nisha on 2/1/2001 6:40 PM EST:

This idea was around last year, too. It was called the “GM-CIA”. It was not the organized because of the short notice that most people had to take part in it…but it worked efficiently and well. Only those who helped out the GM-CIA were allowed to use the information gathered (if I remember correctly…Nate: this is your chance to correct me :wink: ).

I would like to see it again this year…but I have a feeling that it won’t be all that necessary.

Many teams will most likely type up a sheet of what their robot can do (advertising…sort of…no Anton, none of that “Will Strip for Alliances” stuff you did last year) and then photocopy it and pass it out to all the teams at the regionals (the ones the teams go to), and then to those in their own division at the Nationals. I say “many” because it seems like a sensible thing to do.

-=Freshman=-

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Posted by Nisha at 2/2/2001 10:38 PM EST

Engineer on team #303, Vulgens Heroes, from Bridgwater -Raritan HS and Bihler.

In Reply to: Re: We have to organize to win
Posted by Matt Ryan on 2/1/2001 9:15 PM EST:

Yeah your right on many levels too. But this year is a little more involved that last. And this system everyone gets the information. We had the same idea about the survey at the regionals. But we also had a rating system in mind. So it would reduce confusion at the regionals. Less argueing in the two minute stragety periods. And from what I hear a lot of the robots will be doing the same thing. So it would be a good idea to know who does it best. I’m interested in this GM-CIA system can I have the link.

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Posted by Matt Ryan at 2/4/2001 2:55 PM EST

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and Gillette.

In Reply to: Re: We have to organize to win
Posted by Nisha on 2/2/2001 10:38 PM EST:

:
: Yeah your right on many levels too. But this year is a little more involved that last. And this system everyone gets the information. We had the same idea about the survey at the regionals. But we also had a rating system in mind. So it would reduce confusion at the regionals. Less argueing in the two minute stragety periods. And from what I hear a lot of the robots will be doing the same thing. So it would be a good idea to know who does it best. I’m interested in this GM-CIA system can I have the link.

There is no link to the information. The only reason a team had to participate in the GM-CIA to get information is so that teams wouldn’t get a much-needed advantage (info) from the labors of other teams.

This year a bit more involved than last year? I don’t think so (IMNSHO). Last year, it was an alliance vs. another alliance. This year, since everyone is helping each other (during qualifying matches), they would want to give all information out, so that arguing about a strategy would be kept down to a minimum.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/1/2001 9:34 PM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: We have to organize to win
Posted by Nisha on 2/1/2001 6:40 PM EST:

Sorry if that sounds a tad bitter, I swear its the sleepiness talking…

But seriously, have you tried searching on the amount of posts of particular teams trying to centralize the databases? More than you can count on two hands.

And how many have really truly shined above the rest? None. The creator-team plugs it, it is talked about for a couple of days, and then forgotten, the topic of conversation moving onto more questions/comments.

I propose that there should not be a team running the organization that centralizes all the teams.

No matter how big your team is, or how dedicated, this is still a tough year, and I dont think any one team can handle it on their own…and if multiple teams take it on together, I see the judges giving recognition to only one team (if at all), thus making people bitter and having it crumble anyway, which leaves the centralization organization run by only one team (and you know how I feel about that…see above).

I seriously think that someone non-team affiliated (or a group of non-affiliated graduates) should take the centralization on. Thus, they wont be worrying about any matches more than others, And all teams can count on someone being there who knows whats going on ALL THE TIME (no worry about the answer-person running off to a match)…

Also, this is a plus for the non-affiliated graduates that really can’t get to FL anyway (aka, if we want them working for all of us, we could all chip in a bit to pay or have a team sponsor their trip down, dont ya think?)

Just my thoughts. Feel free to pick at it.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Erin at 2/1/2001 10:02 PM EST

Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

In Reply to: Organization is lovely, but how about reality?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/1/2001 9:34 PM EST:

:: Sorry if that sounds a tad bitter, I swear its the sleepiness talking…::

No bitterness taken, Jess, I still love ya.

But the fact is is that most of what you said is right. I am just here to prove my point in our case.

Most databases that are made are constructed by a group of student (or just one). That’s all wonderful and peachy, but that doesn’t leave much of an opening for opinions from the rest of us here in different parts of the country, now does it?

The fact is that some databases will shine above the rest this year. The only ones I recall from last year (that were AWARD WINNING, literally) were SOAP and GMCIA. SOAP was developed by team 108 (very publicized at nationals- congrats), and I highly recommend it. However, I do not have as much experience with that as I do GMCIA.

GMCIA is a database system that is ran by two teams, team 65 and 66, both sponsored by divisions of GM Powertrain. (Willow Run and Pontiac). One segment was began by engineers and students collaborating at GM Powertrain from team 65, and one with students and a college advisor ( HI NATE!!) from team 66. Their efforts paid off greatly and team 65 was even awarded a Team Spirit award at Motorola Midwest and the Indiana Robotics Invitational for offering their database services to the masses at the regionals. They had their software and hardware all set up and organized the right way and they got things done.
This system has officially made its mark, and this will be its second year (I believe) in full operation. Our database system is complete and we even have Palm-components (ThinkDB-for mobile scouting). Now all we need is everyone’s (who is interested) opinions on some terms so that we know how to organize the data.
We are reliable, experienced, user-friendly, and we welcome everybody who wants mutual help in their scouting efforts. This will greatly depleat the work needed to be done for scouting on your team- work that could be used in other areas!
We are getting the job done, now it’s up to you to hop on the bandwagon.
Nate- if you have anything to add, please feel free to add whatever you would like.
E-mail me for more information.
erinlinsey@hotmail.com

I want to hear from everyone who is interested and all opinions are welcome!!

-Erin, Team 65 “The Huskie Brigade”

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/2/2001 6:45 AM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: Here Is Reality.
Posted by Erin on 2/1/2001 10:02 PM EST:

Now, don’t get me wrong, Im not saying that any of the team-run organizations is bad, I just feel that this scouting thing is becoming overpowering and that someone non-team affiliated should take it over.

And it really doesnt matter how big your team is, or how tiny, I still think it the game is more consuming than ever and that teams shouldn’t be trying to organize something that will more than likely not give them any recognition (I’m following FIRST-er human nature in these past years, which is to try/do anything to get your team recognized).

Plus, I feel that a non-affiliated graduate would be thrilled to go to FL, and would be very dedicated to whatever got them there, thus, there would never be a time when the booth was unattended.

Thats all…

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Erin at 2/2/2001 7:51 AM EST

Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

In Reply to: Here? or over here?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 6:45 AM EST:

What about a SUPER-DEDICATED affiliated graduate and his affiliated mostly-dedicated friend, me?

I am pretty sure that Nate doesn’t do all of his work simply for recognition; he enjoys helping people, and he is a cs major, so this is good experience for him. I am doing this just the same, and my team is as well; not for the recognition, but for the sheer enjoyment of bonding with teams other than your own and feeling like you have a shared interest in something. Don’t worry, we’re not out for the Nobel Prize with this one or anything… we just want to help, and we feel like we have the strength to do it.

-Erin

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/2/2001 2:38 PM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: Re: Here? or over here?
Posted by Erin on 2/2/2001 7:51 AM EST:

: What about a SUPER-DEDICATED affiliated graduate and his affiliated mostly-dedicated friend, me?

Im not saying that you cant, but if you want to, then take the initatiative. My only worry about affiliation is that the team might be dragging you away every so often for this, that, and the other thing…and for someone to take this on their FULL attention should be to it, not split with their team…

Its not hard once you change your priorities…think of it as you’re going to FL for FIRST, not for your team…thats what I had to do last year volunteering, and once you make that decision the rest is cake.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Erin at 2/2/2001 8:53 PM EST

Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

In Reply to: Ohhh, over here…
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 2:38 PM EST:

Just so you have an idea of how our team is ran…
When you have a job, you do it. That’s it. I really don’t think our scouting kids are going to be leaving the laptops and palm pilots alone, do you? And I know Nate keeps a manned post. The Huskies can do it again this year just like they did it last year. However, I do appreciate your opinion that alot of non affilated graduates would love the trip to florida, they probably would do a good job… but how would they get there? Maybe FIRST would hook them up, but more than likely not…

Erin

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Posted by JVN at 2/2/2001 6:17 PM EST

Student on team #250, Dynamos - Capital District Robotics Team, from Shenendehowa High School and General Electric and Verizon.

In Reply to: Here? or over here?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 6:45 AM EST:

Jess-
You are going to a non-engineering school next year correct? (congrats again).
Now we all know you probably couldn’t help but get involved in some local team
(or start your own), but if not, wouldn’t you be the perfect candidate
to do this next year? it’s HIGHLY likely that we’ll be
seeing more alliances next year, probably even more than
4 robots out there at once (saves on the number of matches).
Ya never know…

I think you’d be perfect…

~John #250

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/2/2001 8:27 PM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: a volunteer?
Posted by JVN on 2/2/2001 6:17 PM EST:

Awwww, thanks, but next year is totally up in the air…whether I start a team, stick around in the media tent and fax for Sandra ;), or, if the RCU becomes a stronger force, devote my entire time to that.

But I know there are many non-affiliated graduates who would do anything for a trip to FL…

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Nisha at 2/2/2001 10:30 PM EST

Engineer on team #303, Vulgens Heroes, from Bridgwater -Raritan HS and Bihler.

In Reply to: woah, just a sec there…
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 8:27 PM EST:

Ok if the problem is too much data and no recognition for all. Lets all take part. Thanks to the world wide web it can be done. And I don’t think one team should get all the credit. Realistically this is one hell of a hard task. Yes? Yes! But it can be d

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Posted by Nisha at 2/2/2001 10:31 PM EST

Engineer on team #303, Vulgens Heroes, from Bridgwater -Raritan HS and Bihler.

In Reply to: woah, just a sec there…
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 8:27 PM EST:

Ok if the problem is too much data and no recognition for all. Lets all take part. Thanks to the world wide web it can be done. And I don’t think one team should get all the credit. Realistically this is one hell of a hard task. Yes? Yes! But it can be done with the benefit for all. There just has to be a way that everyone in every part of the nation can get involved with. Right now our team is working on the Rutgers competition robots. I know everyone has there own idea but we don’t have to have one big database. We can have a lot of small regional ones. It can work. We just have to work on it.

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Posted by Mike Soukup at 2/3/2001 2:39 AM EST

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.

In Reply to: Here? or over here?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/2/2001 6:45 AM EST:

Not meant as an attack, but what makes you think that most people are building scouting systems for recognition? The reason my team (team 111) is making a DB is because we want to have excellent scouting data on other teams, which should help us in the competition. I’m leading the effort for our team and recognition is not what I’m after, it’s a successful scouting program that will help our team. We’ve also decided to link up with SOAP (btw a great bunch of guys that I can’t wait to meet in person) so we can share all our data with the whole FIRST community. We’re sharing the data because my team believes in gracious professionalism that FIRST pushes; well at least I do and if the students don’t get it yet, I’m failing at my attempts to promote it.

I also disagree with the statement that a non-affiliated group is necessary because there’s such a big time crunch on teams. If it weren’t for the scouting software myself and a few students are developing, we wouldn’t have had anything to do for the past couple months, since robot software comes only at the end. It also gives the students who are interested in CS & CompE a chance to get exposed to real software development, not just the limited work done for the robot. I’m glad I’ve had the chance to expand our team beyond ME & EE, and give the students exposure to the crazy world of CS & CompE that I love. Hopefully by being a member of my group the students will get excited about a future in software development. That’s what FIRST is all about, right?

Phew, enough rambling for me (I could go on for ever). Hope this makes sense :slight_smile:

Mike

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Posted by Lora Knepper at 2/3/2001 9:04 AM EST

Other on team FIRST-a-holics Anonymous from . sponsored by …

In Reply to: Organization is lovely, but how about reality?
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/1/2001 9:34 PM EST:

Before people start taking each other’s heads off, lets put this all into perspective, shall we?

I have to agree with Jess on her point that at least right now, the FIRST community has been literally flooded with new scouting databases. Now, no matter why a particular team or individual decides to make one is beside the point really. There are just numerically too many for us to use - in their current form.

Now as for the GMCIA question, I was talking to Nate way back when he was first coding it last year - and I think it’s a great system and the one I know most about, but lets face it, GMCIA, SOAP, or the group of others I’ve seen posted on here won’t work unless you have people using them, right?

What we are doing in this issue, and in this thread, are letting emotions get in the way. This is becoming a game of hurt feelings, where someone says “there are too many!” and 5 others feel the need to justify why they or their team has created one. I’m not advocating for just one system necessarily, but more of a way to get them to all talk to each other. I know there have been posts before talking about a “Uniform Standard” and I for one, think that’s an excellent idea.

For example, if we had a standard, the regional scouting systems could join up at Nationals, because lets face it, SOAP or GMCIA is not going to be at the NE Regional, or the Lone Star, or the NASA Ames. If the systems can share their knowledge based upon a standard, then when everyone meets up in Florida, imagine the massive amount of data that can be shared? No more having to re-scout teams hundreds of times!

Computer companies do it all the time. There are industry standards for hardware and software - why don’t we make a FIRST scouting standard and stop hurting each other over such a trivial issue? We are all in this game for the same reason, it’s not right to rip each other apart…

~ Lora Knepper

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/3/2001 10:29 AM EST

Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

In Reply to: Before a fight breaks out…please read
Posted by Lora Knepper on 2/3/2001 9:04 AM EST:

: What we are doing in this issue, and in this thread, are letting emotions get in the way. This is becoming a game of hurt feelings, where someone says “there are too many!” and 5 others feel the need to justify why they or their team has created one. I’m not advocating for just one system necessarily, but more of a way to get them to all talk to each other. I know there have been posts before talking about a “Uniform Standard” and I for one, think that’s an excellent idea.

I think Lora found the point I’ve been trying to get at. I’m not out to bash any specific program, nor do I need your reasons to justify your teams validity in making it because you’re allowed to make one and you wanted to, thats validity enough for me.

But, I still think theres too many for all of them to be independent, and maybe total integration is too late now (with Nationals so close), but centralization could work.

With all the scouting programs in one place, there would be no doubt in anyone’s mind where to go for the info. And, if one system was busy or down, then other programs could get the exposure/use that they wouldn’t have gotten elsewhere.

I don’t know, I apologize to everyone I offended with my views. I hope something works out, but maybe I should just stop giving my opinion on this because maybe I dont know what I’m saying.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Mike Soukup at 2/3/2001 12:12 PM EST

Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.

In Reply to: Point…
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/3/2001 10:29 AM EST:

Lora, I fully agree with you that there should be a set standard that everyone building a scouting system should follow. But I agree more with Jessica’s statement that there isn’t enough time. Since everyone is probably well on their way to developing their own excellent system, it’s not realistic to have them start over and follow a standard. Plus if you just look around any industry, it takes months, even years for a bunch of companies to agree to a standard (unless you’re microsoft and you just tell people what the standard is, and say “follow it or die,” but that’s a discussion for another time :slight_smile:

If the FIRST community truly wants to set a standard for scouting systems to follow, it should be discussed in the fall, not the winter/spring. From working with the SOAP team and through development here at Motorola, I know how hard collaboration can be between people who aren’t at the same location. It takes a lot of time and a lot of extra effort.

For this year, I think teams should go ahead and share data between themselves if they can work it out. Heck, it doesn’t have to be on the computer, do it the old fashioned way by trading sheets of paper. We’ll all benefit from that. But as for a computer standard, I fear it’s too late in the game to try to hammer one out. As for next year, I’ll talk to anyone who wants to set a standard or form an alliance.

Jessica, feel free to continue giving your opinion. I wasn’t offended by anything you’ve said so far.

Mike (who is also trying not to offend anyone)

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Posted by Joe Ross at 2/4/2001 4:10 AM EST

Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.

In Reply to: Re: Point…
Posted by Mike Soukup on 2/3/2001 12:12 PM EST:

I agree that it is too late to do a common scouting system for this year. But, I do have a few ideas for next year.

The way that I see it, there are many different databases, each with its own specialty and quirks. This obviously has its disadvantages. It also has many advantages because there are certain things that ateam looks for in a database. By doing their own, a team can get exactly what they want.

I have an idea for how to combine the best of both systems. It all relys upon a common database that is shared among all teams.

This database would have to encompase all the different features of the each team’s this year. This means that it has to have detailed robot info entered by the team, have much scouting data, and also have detailed match information.

This database would be what everything revolves around. the database, with its commmon format, would then be availible for anyone to make any type of interface.

For example, Nate Smith seems to be very good at programming a palm. He could create a data entry system for the palm/visor. Once he is finished, he could release it to the rest of the FIRST community for use for entering data into the database.

Some other team may make a really cool application for entering in match data. Another team might make a web interface for searching the robot section of the database, and someone else might make a cool way to look at the match data. Another team might design a wireless network that could be used to enter data.

By using each teams strengths, we could make a killer system.

The biggest problem with this system is the design and maintenence of the database. It would take a while and a lot of input so that the database has everything that everyone would be interseted. Then we also would need a central location to host the database. Each team would be able to update it, but there would need to be one copy that is considered the main one.

This is where the person who isn’t affiliated with a team comes in. That person would be in charge of the maintenece of the database. It wouldn’t have to be someone not affiliated with a team, but there would need to be one person who would step up and take charge of the database.

In short, what I am proposing is a common databases with many different UIs.

That is my 3 cents.

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