Weird Qualifying Rules

FIRST General Forum
21

When I first saw the seeding system this year I thought it weird too, but GDC usually has reason for what they do and if you guys had any idea how much debating, experimentation and associated craziness goes on with the development of all this, you’d have a new appreciation for it.

GDC figures out how they want games to look as its being played, then builds the scoring and seeding around that. You can look at the point assignments and sorta figure out how to “work” the system.

IMHO, some things to look out for:

Don’t “shut out” your opponent if you win, your coopertition bonus is the sum of their unpenalized points X 2, so theorectically, if they have a couple of goals, you get double that in your coop seeding.

A nasty case is the one where you get like the last match that just happened in KC, final score was 13 - 0, but the winning alliance got a penalty, so the win alliance got 12 seeding points and no Coop bonus (lose allaince was 0), but the lose allaince gets the unpenalized score of the win allaince, so they got 13 seeding points (lose team gets no coop bonus) so the lose team actually came out ahead in seeding, even though they got slammed in the match.

The point is, be smart about the system, ranking is as much a part of the game as the bots on the field, so be educated about it and know how to strategize about it. Complaining about it after the fact is a waste of time. It just shows you didn’t investigate the game up front.

Its Week One, teams are still figuring out the game, remember to have fun with it, I’d like to see some good coversations on how to use the rank system system to team advantage. Well, some might not want to give away their strategies :slight_smile:

22

Do the venues keep “box scores” for the individual teams during qual and elim, and make this data available after the meet ?

Or is the only data available to a team that which their own scouting efforts gather ?

~

23

The FRC FMS system provides the Twitter feeds which breaks out the score detail from a match by alliance, there’s also the HTML pages on the FIRST web site, but that doesn’t have as much individual match score data. Someone that truely understands the match scoring and ranking can derive everything they need for scouting from the twitter feeds…

24

Is there an explanation of the data put out by the Twitter feed anywhere?

25

There is an explanation on the FIRST site, here.

26

Can this be accessed with an internet browser? Or is special software required?

which breaks out the score detail from a match by alliance

Does this include detail at the team level? For example, how many goals, penalties, suspended, did each team get. Stuff like that.

there’s also the HTML pages on the FIRST web site

I surfed but didn’t see any links to match data at USFIRST.ORG Can you post a link? Thanks.

~

27

All I have to say is so much for them saying that this year the fans can understand the scoring. Lets see what happens when a fantastic robot wins all their matches and is last in the seeding. Explain that to the crowd.
Bruce

28

A major part of the problem is the announcers at the venue, and the way they whoop it up when an alliance “wins” a match during the qualifiers.

Perhaps the announcers do not understand either.

FIRST should provide some training for the announcers at each venue.

During the qualifying matches, the announcers should downplay, or even ignore, “wins”, and instead announce how many seed points each alliance is awarded for each match. This would educate not only the fans, but many of the unaware teams as well.

~

29

This is definitely not true on the webcasts I watched. Tyler Olds at KC (awesome game announcer!) spent a lot of time explaining that you wanted a close match, how many QPs each team would get, etc.

The winner this year does have the benefit in any match where the score is not zero for the opponents. Winning is not completely secondary.

30

Did he announce the QPs after each qual match instead of announcing the “winner” of the match?

That was what I was suggesting.

Take a look at the webcast of the Traverse City qual.

~

31

Jane,

We did talk about it here on CD. With the lack of uproar about it, I assumed (yeah, I know) that teams understood the implications of the new seedeing points.

After participating at GSR, it was quite obvious that many teams did not initially understand all of the implications … however by Saturday morning (too late) most teams had figured it out.

My hope is that most teams will have now seen how it works and won’t try and shut out their opponent. It’s just another thing that you need to discuss with your alliance partners before each match.

32

I believe he announced the final score and left it at that, sometimes making a comment that it was a blowout and bad for seeding, etc. I’ll catch TC if it gets archived to see what you mean, though.

33

I know it was discussed here in CD and I didn’t make my statement clear, sorry. What I meant was that each team in FRC should have read, talked about, and understood all of the implications involved in scoring this year so that they can come to the event(s) that they participate in, prepared. ChiefDelphi is an excellent resource but I don’t know that every team in FRC reads it. It is up to each team to make sure that they read the manual, study the rules, and understand them. Hopefully, more teams will be taking advantage of that opportunity before the upcoming competitions, and will be better prepared as teammates and as alliance partners for the rest of the season.

Aside: We can talk and natter and squabble about the best teams/top teams all day long, year after year, and it is silly. This is an example of why - they come to the competition prepared to play.

Jane

34

Unfortunately, other than adding the seeding points in my head after each match, we did not have anything that told the GA’s what the seeding score was. I told teams to check in at pit admin in order to find out, and like Chris said, I tried to point out when weird results happened (like the 14-0 game where red alliance got a penalty, which resulted in the blue alliance getting more seeding points). I have to admit it is disappointing that FIRST did really update the final score screen, however I am sure that we will discuss this in the Emcee/GA conference call tomorrow. Weather it will get fixed or not in time for other regionals would be interesting to see.

Jane: While I agree that all teams should know how the seeding is done, what about the spectators and non-FIRSTers who are at the venue? Just a thought, not meant to create an argument or further discussion.

35

We put together a Excel simulation for the seeding points right in the beginning of the season.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83903&page=5

36

well from many perspectives scoring on the opponents goal helps if you’re up by alot and can afford that luxury, however it makes you look bad for scoring in the nopponents goal.