What constitutes the "Best" team?

FIRST General Forum
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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 3/28/99 9:53 PM MST

i’ve been reading, and reading, and reading… and here’s what i come up with…

everybody’s beef last year, and year’s past was that the “best” team didn’t always win, because of ganging up, flying pigs, suicide jockeys, etc. so FIRST changed it. they changed the seeding so the highest scorer is on top, and that team’s who may have a had a few bad rounds can still be picked and win, so now what’s the problem?

when this year’s competition was announced everyone felt the “best” team(s) would finally win, so now are you saying they are not…

but, before anyone says anything else on the subject, i would like someone to clarify for me exactly who is the “BEST” team you’re all talking about, and why exactly do you not think they are going to win?

who says, that right now, the team you consider to be not one of the “best” , not one of those you are concerned about not making it or getting picked is really a lot better than you think. or, the team you’re all worried about not making it into the finals is really not as impressive as you think.

as i see it, in years past, the determination of who’s the “best” was left up to the system, so why not this year? just because you think a certain team is good, and the don’t make it to the elite 16, well then, maybe they just aren’t as good as you perceived.

in essence, only one alliance will be the “best” and as in years past, that won’t be determined until the second the score is announced of the final match of the national competition, only then can anyone specifically be considered the best or deserving to have anything.

ok…so it’s late… i ramble, and it may not make sense… but, just because a team you think is good may not make it into the top 16, doesn’t mean the process is unfair, because in the end, as in every year, the best team, and only the best team, will win… because they are the only ones who made it that far. and, if during the partnering process you are rejected, so consider yourself rejected and choose someone else, just because you are ranked higher does not make you the better team, and maybe, just maybe, if you do more communicating to teams you’re interested in prior to the selection process, we won’t hear of so many rejections on stage…

in a long-winded nutshell… at this point, none of us are at priviledge to say that the best teams won’t make the top 16, because only the best teams will, and only the best teams will win… and even though you may not think those top 16 are top, too bad, cause they are, and that is the only fair thing about the process. we are almost breaking down this competition so that everyone makes it to the elimination matches, which never was the intention, let’s think about all of this…

until any of us compete or are chosen, none of us should be saying who’s best and who’s not, and who deserved to be chosen and who didn’t get picked, cause that’s the way it works out so that the best team really, truly does win…

ok…i’m done, don’t be too happy…

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Posted by bill stahlman, Student on team #16, baxter bomb squad, from mountain home high school and baxter healthcare.

Posted on 3/29/99 10:54 PM MST

In Reply to: What constitutes the ‘Best’ team? posted by colleen on 3/28/99 9:53 PM MST:

:
One of the reasons that the best team doesn’t make it to the top 16 is
because some of the top seeds get taken by teams that aren’t so good and
get carried by good teams who bring their average scores up. Plus, you
can’t help being in the finals and your alliances partner breaks, and it
is one great robot against two, the odds aren’t that great.

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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 3/30/99 4:03 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: What constitutes the ‘Best’ team? posted by bill stahlman on 3/29/99 10:54 PM MST:

the point i’m trying to make is, i think everyone’s predetermining who they think is the best and ‘deserves’ to be in the elimination matches… but not anyone of us has the right to say who should make, who will make it, and who shouldn’t until the competition comes…

and sure… some teams will get carried, but if they really aren’t ‘good enough’ they won’t make it far anyway… everyone has earned the right to make it to elimination matches, don’t sell too many teams short… or think too highly and give to much credit to anyone (don’t get me wrong… i am also quite impressed by the likes of 71 and 27…)… because the competition isn’t over yet…

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 3/30/99 5:33 PM MST

In Reply to: the point is… posted by colleen on 3/30/99 4:03 PM MST:

Colleen,

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that, while I don’t know what teams are ‘best’ I do know a great team when I see one.

More than that, I think that most teams can pick out the great teams.

You seem to feel that what ever happens, then that is the ‘best’ team.

I disagree. It is very easy to construct a system that does not let the cream rise to the top.

I think that it is in the long term best interest of the game to have the teams that are generally agreeed to be great do well.

If FIRST allows too many cinderella stories, then I think that the incentive to try to be one of best is largely destroyed.

I have not seen all the teams, but I can say that something is wrong if we get to FL and Wildstang, Beatty/Hammond, & Baxter/Mountain Home have not risen to the top.

Joe J.

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Posted by Jon, Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.

Posted on 3/30/99 7:13 PM MST

In Reply to: out on a limb… posted by Joe Johnson on 3/30/99 5:33 PM MST:

:I think that it is in the long term best interest of the game to have the teams that are generally agreeed to be great do well.

:If FIRST allows too many cinderella stories, then I think that the incentive to try to be one of best is largely destroyed.

I can understand too many cinderella stories because it would upset the balance, but i think that so far FIRST has done a pretty good job in creating the games so that even rookie teams stand a chance against the dynasties.
I can’t even begin to imagine that the incentive to be the best could be destroyed. yes, this is a learning experience and everything, but it’d be nice if you won a couple too!
what having weird games like this allows is for everyone to have a chance and young teams to not be discouraged from putting their entire hearts into it and getting somewhere. If these games didn’t have the potential to change in the blink of an eye, they wouldn’t even be half as exciting.
Last year i was on a rookie team (#57 HSEP/Exxon Tigers) and we were surprised and very excited to break into the top 10 and be recognized at the SW regional due to our human player/machine interaction.
Part of that small victory is what drove me to attend WPI and become one of 190’s engineers…
Chalk another future engineer/scientist to the FIRST cause!

jon

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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 3/30/99 9:33 PM MST

In Reply to: out on a limb… posted by Joe Johnson on 3/30/99 5:33 PM MST:

yes, i agree, they are good… but you have not seen it all yet, you or anyone… right now they may seem like the cream of the crop, but you never know… i’m trying to say that you shouldn’t count out anyone just yet… and it’s not at all fair to say that they should make it… whoever makes it, makes it, there is no unfairness, no questioning, no judgement calls or opinions when the scores of the matches reflect the performance…

i will not deny that i have seen good teams, or seen some not great ones, but there is room for improvement and room for change… and if those teams you mentioned don’t end up in the top 16, i don’t think anyone would have a right to blame it on the setup of the competition… it’s the wat life goes… part of competition is not winning… best of luck to everyone, but we can’t all win…

and Mr. J, just for a point of reference from where i stand (and please don’t be insulted)… i went to chicago and saw you guys… i was impressed by some parts of your robot, but overall not as much as in previous years… i must say… i expected a little more, a little better from you guys… but i’ve also heard (and was expecting) that you are getting better, and i know you will be a tough competitor in Florida, but if i only had chicago to base it on… i doubt i would put my money on you guys making the sweet 16… but chances are you will… it’s just a statement… facts, robots, abilities change with time, practice and experience… and the good may or may not turn out to be the best… i say let the competition work itself out…

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/2/99 6:46 PM MST

In Reply to: maybe i’m out on the limb, but… posted by colleen on 3/30/99 9:33 PM MST:

Ouch… …Unsolicited body blow!

What did I do to ask for that? :slight_smile:

Ah well, regardless, we aimed for the best robot we could manage. If it is not as good as you expected, what can I say? We will try to make it up to you next year :wink:

By the way, don’t count us out just yet. While you and I may both wish that Chief Delphi IV was more awe inspiring, it may manage to win a big trophy yet.

Time will tell…

Continued good luck to all teams,

Joe J.

P.S. You are not alone in your accessment of our performance in Chicago. Now that our team seems to have recovered from the Chicago Fiasco, even Bill Beatty (a.k.a. ‘Beatty the Elder’) has joined in the fun of teasing me about Chicago. We can take it :slight_smile:

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Posted by colleen, Student on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro.

Posted on 4/4/99 6:42 PM MST

In Reply to: ouch… posted by Joe Johnson on 4/2/99 6:46 PM MST:

Oh! Please don’t take me wrong, i was agreeing with both you and Mr. Beatty… we’re all expecting a challenge from you in florida… that’s the point i’m trying to make about judging ‘good/best’ teams before we’re at the nationals, there’s no way to say who deserves it, or who is the best teams until we’re there at the nationals. it just seems everyone has this preconceived notion of who should be the top teams, and they are scared they aren’t going to make it, i was trying to make the point that there will be teams like yourself, that if i didn’t know of the Delphi spirit, i would think we’re down and out before the competition started… however, i’m 110% postive you guys will be that much better when we see you in florida…

sorry if that was taken offensively, it was totally unintentional and not meant for that purpose at all… don’t hurt me!! (j/k… i hope you wouldn’t :slight_smile:

best of luck to all…
colleen

: Ouch… …Unsolicited body blow!

: What did I do to ask for that? :slight_smile:

: Ah well, regardless, we aimed for the best robot we could manage. If it is not as good as you expected, what can I say? We will try to make it up to you next year :wink:

: By the way, don’t count us out just yet. While you and I may both wish that Chief Delphi IV was more awe inspiring, it may manage to win a big trophy yet.

: Time will tell…

: Continued good luck to all teams,

: Joe J.

: P.S. You are not alone in your accessment of our performance in Chicago. Now that our team seems to have recovered from the Chicago Fiasco, even Bill Beatty (a.k.a. ‘Beatty the Elder’) has joined in the fun of teasing me about Chicago. We can take it :slight_smile:

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Posted by Joe Johnson, Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 4/4/99 9:09 PM MST

In Reply to: Sorry! it wasn’t meant to offend! posted by colleen on 4/4/99 6:42 PM MST:

Colleen,

I get your point. Thanks for the reply.

I still don’t buy it entirely, but I see the point you were trying to make.

I still think that it is not that hard to judge a good team as you indicate.

Without rehashing last year again, I KNOW that Gael Force, WildStang, Beatty Hammond, Baxter Mountain Home, TJ2, 3d Services, UTC International Fuel Cell,Delphi Kokomo and others did not all ‘belong’ in that losers bracket, yet there they all were. Only one team was getting out alive. It turned out to be Delphi Kokomo, the eventual National Champs.

We all know that those teams were great. Yet the system that FIRST had established last year for judging among teams did not reflect that widely held (and correct in my opinion) view.

I think that this was a problem.

This is why I do not think that we should all just accept that the best teams always win out in the end. I think that it is in FIRST long-term best interest to have teams that are the concensus ‘good’ teams generally do well. Just as it is in the NCAA’s long-term interest for there to be a general correlation between the seeding of the tourney and the results.

My two cents.

Joe J.

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Posted by Brian Beatty, Engineer on team #71, Team Hammond, from Hammond Schools and Beatty Machine.

Posted on 4/2/99 10:16 PM MST

In Reply to: maybe i’m out on the limb, but… posted by colleen on 3/30/99 9:33 PM MST:

Colleen: I agree with your comments about #47 at Chicago(Joe would also). But don’t ever say he is out at Florida. Last year,they had their act together from the start. This year, because of new baby and other things, they got a late start. But judging by Great Lakes, they will be in the hunt at Florida. Look for #47’s number to be up on stage frequently.

Sincerely,

Brian Beatty

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