I think I have found a small flaw with FIRST. We were seated in the top 8 all during Qualification matches. The problem was, our last match (the 2nd to last one) was lost due to our alliance not hanging. The score was 100 to 115. This shot us down to posistion # 12 from the 2nd place we were in the beginning of the day. If we would have went up. (I am not blamming it on that team, just givin the info) The only problem was, every team already had made the decision on who they would choose in the alliance choosings. Everyone still thinking we were in the top eight didn’t add us to their list. This was very frustrating for our team after doing very well in NJ finishing 3rd, and being in the 1, 2 or 3 seeded spot, and not getting picked. Has what happened to us ever happened to any other teams? What do you think about what happend? Many teams after the choosing were like uhhh…you didn’t get picked?
I agree that it is highly annoying, but there isn’t much that can be done about it. You would think that the other teams would have you on their list and just skip you if they knew you weren’t a possiblility, but that isn’t really the fault of the system itself.
wow thats a difficult situation - I would be surprized if teams ignored the top seeded teams for picking alliances - the other 7 top seeds would be my first choice - pick the bot that did the best that compliments your robot (or the one you REALLY dont want to have to go up against)
How many teams were at the event? some of these large regionals make it very difficult to keep track of everyone - but even still, I would think a primary input to scouting would be the final placement in the seeding rounds - 12th place would be a prime candidate.
yea… that is really fustrating, and very disapointing, but similar occurances like this have happened several times before. the only thing that is guarenteed is that the top eight teams will compete in the eliminations… the other teams can only hope. 
as matt said in another thread… i dont think the problem here is due to a problem in FIRST, but with a problem within teams themselves. Anyone at UTC today knows about the mass chaos that was the alliance pickings. There were teams being picked that had already been picked, alliance captains being picked that were ranked higher than the team picking them, and teams being picked that dont exist and/or weren’t at the regional. Also i was disgusted with the amount of rudeness and the amount of bitterness that was going on during and after the pickings. For example… one member of an unnamed team (in the top 8), after being picked by a higher ranked team responded “we’re happy with the partners we got” (or something to effect of that) What ever happened to lines like “In the true spirit of FIRST, we sadly are forced to decline”? Overall, i was disgusted with what went on today at the UTC regional, and i would hope that other people would not have to experience this kind of strange, cruel torture.
(This post was not meant to offend anyone or any team. Any examples used for for the just that purpose, an example)
HUH?!
someone tried to pick one of the top 8 teams in the second round of picks?!
you cant do that - once a team has picked an alliance partner that top seeded team cant be picked by another team.
Well Ken, some teams tried… In the second round of picks there were teams picking other allaince captains, then picking already picked teams, then picking non existent teams. Ahh yes, there was also the dispute involving 237… Apparently, since they (ranked 6) were in the top 8 and rejected one invitation(571), they could not accept the invitation of 126(5) because they had already declined another team.
ok - next year FIRST has to put 3 Zire PDAs in each KOPs, along with a scouting program, and a way to update all of them on the field during alliance selection from the IR beacons :^)
It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.
This is a very frustrating situation, and two very prominant situations stick out in my memories just during my driving career, and one being on both sides of the situation.
In 2002, I had experienced an unusual amount of successes along with my fellow driving partner, and team members. We were alwas seeded in the very top, and never questioned the fact of not being in the position of being able to pick. As the alliance captain, I have only ever done picking of highly seeded teams at official competitions. However, after I returned from post-season competitions, I analyzed my work and found that I had choose teams that I knew worked well, had experience, and we had worked with prior too; eventhough they were seeded quite low at the competition.
In 2003 though a new game began with a new robot and new strategies. We, as a drive team found ourselves at a very different and unfamiliar place. We had never experienced what we believed at the time as “failure”. We had been driving together since the 2001 game, and were unfamiliar with having to bite our nails to find out if we were going to the finals (elimination rounds). At our Regional, MidAtlantics, we uncrated finding ourselves very unprepared and had a great amount of work to even consider competing by Friday morning. By the time Alliance selections rolled around, we were rolling and starting to shine on the field. A rookie team (1048 Martians ?? correct me if I am wrong) had faith in us, and asked us to assist them alongside 303 in the finals. We proved to be a strong alliance eventhough they picked us from around the 30th seed of 32 or 34 teams.
We had prequalified from the year before for Houston. We went on, and became a powerhouse in our division being seeded #6 the entiire competition all the way through till our last Qualification match. We had our fist misfortune with a drill motor since we became opperational for the season, and we didn’t have a stong alliance partner. It was a close match, and a long battle, but it ended up bumping us to #14. All day Saturday fellow teams had attempted to “buy our bid”, to have us pick them, and praise us for our work. However, when it came selection time no one was even aware that we had been bumped from the top 8. It was heartbreaking as a floor team as it was our last Horrrrah! together, and it was so close, but slipped away. I believe there is a thread somewhere - a discussion was started regarding this situation in Galileo at Houston in 2003 - that only two teams ranked between 10 and 20 were taken to the finals in alliances.
… sorry for the long posting, just my pennyless thoughts …
almost every regional is like this, although probably not to the extent of what you say happened at UTC =(.
the gracious professionalism slight is pretty much unacceptable anywhere, regardless of how many teams or whos picking you or whatever. but i remember at pittsburgh, there was confusion as well, between whether or not a team would accept, and there was a lot of pressure on the singular representative out there, and one team had basically everyone telling him to do something while he was signing that he was going to do the opposite. we had teams picking other teams who had been picked etc etc. what would help is if during the picking, a live list of teams that have been picked and the pickers (basically teams you cant pick) would be displayed during the selection process on the big screen.
I think that would be a very good idea. I think this idea should attempt to persue this for next years competition. I dont think it will be very hard for them to attempt/do. It would also help the top 8 and keep away from confusion. The PDA idea would be cool, just not to that extent, lol. (they probobly could get some really cheap ones donated or somting that you must return for the next year or ELSE pay)
well we have a situation kind of like yours… we where 5th or 6th after 8 of our 10 matches then the last day we did not want to break any thing before the finals so we left it up to our alliance partner weather we would win or not… we lost our last two and ended up in 13th for the regional… luckily enough teams saw how good we where and we got picked first by the first place alliance… if i was in your situation i would of been pissed off for a while becuase i knew we had a good robot and if we did not get picked. it would sucked big time… any ways remember theres always next time or even the nationals to get em back!
(we dont have the money…only way would have been to win the regional and get payed for by FIRST)
this was going to be team 61’s last year becuase of lack of support from the school ect… but thank goodness we won the regional becuase now they want to support us…we have done one regional for 6 years now becuase of lack of money but since we won florida we then went to our sponsers and asked for some money. thank goodness for having great sponsers we were able to raise over 5,000 in less than two days… well since you can not get em this year remember next year!
what happend suck for us , but there is no changing it. i hope that next year they top seeded team can accualy figure out what is going out, they seemed to not have a clue what anyone else was doing.
No, I don’t think this is a flaw in the system. Its the mistake of the teams that didn’t choose you. If your robot was as good as you say it is, they should have had you on their list even though you were in the top eight. In scouting we include everybody above us in ranking and then just cross them off if they choose a team (and not us). I do not think FIRST should change the Alliance Selection procedure. If nothing else, its a suspensful part of the competition.
I would not blame the coincidence on FIRST. There were MANY good teams at UTC, and picking the best partners was very tough. It all depends on the choosing teams strategy. For example my team has a meeting and ranks each team to our specifications, and then ranks whom we wish to pick first, followed by the next ranking team in case our first choice is picked by someone else.
Also, the game this year ranks team by their number of wins, AND THEN qp’s. This may be a flaw in FIRST, but I still wouldn’t point fingers. I mean, if your team wins all of their matches, GREAT, but if you won by only five points or so, not so impressive, however that puts you up in the ranks. I think teams don’t look at ranks, but at qualities, and effectiveness. And if it’s not up to their standards, or isn’t as great as other teams, your lower on the list to pick from. Now I’m saying this in general to give an example, and have nothing whatsoever against your team. I saw you guys out there, and you were good, so I don’t know what happened. On a second note; the alliance captains of the top seeded teams did not seem to be prepared or aware of the alliance choosing rules, so this might have also had an impact on why your team wasn’t chosen. I don’t know what happened out there. This is a one time instance for your team, and it just happpens. I am sure that your team won’t be on a streak of bad luck, so cheer up, and good luck in the future!
I dont believe that FIRST pays for anyone anywhere to goto nationals even after they won a competition (someone correct me if wrong please =D). The same thing happened when 188 won west michigan last year. There was only 1 or 2 weeks in between and what ended up happening was that only the drive crew, human player, 1 teacher and 1 mentor went to houston while the rest of us stayed at home. I feel for your team, but theres not much anyone can do right now, and personally I feel the system is fine the way it is. Maybe your team could try to talk it up with the other teams a bit more? Prepare flyers and handouts and distribute them just before alliance pickings? or have representatives go out and talk with the high seeded teams as well. A lot of times high seeds pick other high seeds and then the 9th, 10th, 11th seeded teams pick and some do so without pre-scouted lists because they didnt originally believe they had to. At pittsburgh something like the 12th or 13th seeded team got to pick
At the Arizona regional (or BAE…i can’t remember) they did have a list in the background of the top seeded teams and then on the right side they had the teams that were left. it wasn’t applicable to our team because we got picked by the 2nd place team, but i’m sure it was very useful in 2nd round picking for other teams
I also seem to remember there being a list of the top teams and who they picked along with the remaining teams on the big screen at the Florida Regional (most clearly remember this in 2002 at KSC). But this year at FL regional I don’t think they had it and yes there were also problems with teams picking teams not in the regional or allready picked teams.