What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?

As most of you can tell I really like coaching, but what are your opinions about FIRST allowing 2 coaches again (This isnt a rumor or been discussed, its more of a “What if” question)

I would like to see FIRST bring back the 2nd coach with these changes:

-The 2nd coach will be optional (in previous years I know how tough it gets with 4 coaches out there with space issues, and strategy debating, but it can get really tough for one coach (I know, its tough to watch yourselves and the opponenets)

-If a team uses a 2nd coach, it must be a student: There are many teams that have had the same coach for years, but students would like to coach, but may not have that chance unless they bring back 2 coaches…If FIRST said the 2nd coach could be anyone, then the 4 adults bickering would come back again and the rule change would be pointless because it brings back the point for why they got rid of the 2nd coach in the first place…if the 2nd coach is a student, bickering and arguing could go down (who knows?) because they are more of a trainee to the adult that in the future the student has coaching expierence for if and when they start their own team as an adult.

Thats my thoughts… 2nd coach… good or bad?

I don’t believe that the arguing and bickering was a result of 4 adult coaches as much as it was a result of not allowing strategy preparation, and announcing the pairings at the last second.

*Originally posted by kevin_308 *
**I don’t believe that the arguing and bickering was a result of 4 adult coaches as much as it was a result of not allowing strategy preparation, and announcing the pairings at the last second. **

Thats very true…I remember a lot of tempers flaring at nationals in 2001…having 2 coaches with 4 teams…8 coaches wow that got kind of nuts…but there are better ways to bring back the 2nd coach…

hmm… seein as i am the only coach and i like it like that i have to vote nay (i’m the only no vote up there right now)

I posted two for only one reason really…

Basically, last year with 2 coaches… on coach direcly “coached” the driver/operator… the other coach was in charge of strategy & talking strategy before the match, and then keeping everyone on task during the match (calling out strategy changes, etc). It wasn’t really necessary for two last year imho.

This year with only one, we could do all that, but tracking the score during a match, on which many strategies depended, became hard… trying to communicate with your team, your alliance, count the score, watch the time, call changes, etc… it became hard…

That’s the only reason I’d vote for a second coach… I’d be a fan of making it optional… because I think the # of coaches necessary depends on the game.

Well, many different views to take on this. If I remember correctly when I became driver in May of 2001, we only used one coach in my first competition. I don’t remember if it was the coach’s decision (the previous driver) or if there wasn’t anyone there to do it. I didn’t mind only having one coach, it kept things sinplilar. However, I see the view that having a second one, and have it mandatory to be a high school student allows not only for others to have the floor experience but also learn how to be a coach for the future. Right now, I am undecided either way, because I will never have to worry about it as a driver. My coach will still be in college next year, and I know he is more than willing to stick with our floor team next year. However, I have already run into the problem of having no one else know what to do as coach, so when we go to NASA/MD State Fair, we will have to have someone step in for him, because they will not allow non high school students to coach. So, if FIRST were to change the coach rule, allow teams to have two, however, the second mentor badge should be restricted to high school students so they can learn.

Would this mean 5 people per team or 4? The roles of the 4 people are not all that clearly defined other than to limit what the mentor can do. WHo is to say that student 3 can’t be a “coach?”
I think you can also have a coach who helps develop overall plans before the match with the help of the rest of the driver team.

I know R.A.G.E. had all students up on stage for coaching driving and human player this year. And from what I have heard the adults can become a little caught up in the moment, so to speek, and they start getting upset with the students. And this means the mentors don’t always give the drivers to much control as to the stratedgy, whereas with a student may work a little better with their peers on the drive team. So my vote is a little up in the air but i deffinitly think there should be a student coaching. Whether by themselves or with an adult mentor it doesnt matter, just as long as the competitions(stratedgy, drive team) remain for the most part in the hands of the students.

I’d like to see having two coaches next year, but if so, I would want to make one be a high school student. The second coach allows more people (and more students) to participate. You can also give parents, engineers, and sponsors to be a part of the floor team without sacrificing a vital spot on your drive team.

I would agree that it is easier to define 4 roles than 5, but I do know there are cases where I would have liked to have a 5th person, or wanted to have an adult to assist (we have an all-student drive team). In particular, our “Strategy Guy” was an adult, but we wanted to keep the 4-student team, so he couldn’t go on the field and help with strategy. He had to stand off to the side and be there if we needed to ask a question before a match. Having him there in the box with us would have been very helpful in a few spots.

So, I would say that the second coach is a good idea, but only if there is a mandatory student coach for the first position.

*Originally posted by jk2005 *
**i know rage had all students up on stage for coaching driving and human player this year and from what i have heard the adults can become a little caught up in the moment so to speek and start getting angry with the students and dont always give the drivers to much control as to the stratedgy whereas with a student they may work a little more with their peers on the drive team so my vote is a little up in the air but i deffinitly think there should be a student coaching whether by themselves or with an adult mentor it doesnt matter just as long as the competitions(stratedgy, drive team) remain for the most part in the hands of the students **

You need to punctuate.
Anyway, with the keeping track of score issue. I was the arm driver. After we picked up balls, etc, i kept a score for our team, and our coach pretty much watched the opposing teams. When he saw something that we needed to react to he told us. If you watch any video of our matches our arm driving usually gets done quickly. It allowed me to keep score and our coach to focus elsewhere.
But not all teams have a second driver not doing anything during the match. I guess your design can effect(affect, i was never good with that) your coaching.

Oh yeah i said keep 1

Ogre,

I know I need to punctuate. But, I usually dont post long posts so I rarely do. Even when they are long it is just a bad habbit of mine. Anyways school is out and I don’t care that much.

P.S. My previous post is now edited with punctuation marks. Happy now Ogre. Ohh and I know the person that controls your breaks.:slight_smile:

Time for a tangent!

I remember some disscusion about the role of human players, and how they pretty much clutter the station up 80% of the time for lack of anything to do aside keep score (on the teams that allow them even that much). Some one mentioned moving the human players out of the station and into their own ‘human player station’, either in the field or on the side lines, whatever. This way, human players get a bit more attention (which they deserve) and you get the player station less cluttered. Every one wins!

I’m in love with the idea.

So, if FIRST were to some how bring the human players out of the player station, I would be open to the two coaches again. It’s just to crowded as it is, I’d like to see the human players seperated regardless of how many coaches we have.

I think 4 people are plenty to control a 'bot and keep score, espically if FIRST keeps their promise of easy scoring this year. We’ll see…

-Andy A.

*Originally posted by jk2005 *
** Ohh and I know the person that controls your breaks.:slight_smile: **

I do too. And i can go on break whenever i want, its called quitting. lol:D

well number of coaches should be no more than 2. this could work as long as 2 team alliances. I am a second year first student and i took over as coach during all of the off season competitions. this was because during the “real” season i was human player. I made very little shots, but having that extra head back there to keep track of scores was a big help in qualifying. The reason i became coach is because our new driver in training feels most compfortable with me helping him behind the glass. Personally, i think coaches should all be students (high school or college). This would keep some of the emotions down between the evil coaches that boss everyone around (not common at all, but you know who you are) thats just my 2 cents.

I’ve always wondered why a second coach is needed to discuss strategy before a match. As a driver, I always did it myself. That way I knew exactly what was going on. What takes up other drivers’ time before matches? Last year and in 2001, I never had any trouble strategizing. Two coaches can be very useful on the field, mind you. 2001 definitly was nice for that. There was so much tunnel vision while driving since everything had to be done so precisely (aka, balancing) that having one coach be an extra set of eyes and ears was a real plus. Last year having a 5th person on the field would have been completely uneccesarry. I say let FIRST decide on a problem by problem basis.

~Tom Fairchild~

If nothing else comes from this thread its that

-FIRST needs to have a student coach out there…

-If FIRST only has one coach and its a student it could put too much pressure on them…an adult backup would be a wise solution

  • If FIRST would have 2 coaches, you could make it an adult and a student, it would prevent confusion on the field if you plan it out right.

I know people have said this in earlier threads, but with 2 coaches, one watches our allience and makes sure everything goes smoothly, and the 2nd watches the opponents to make sure they dont do pull any suprises, and keep time along with the human player

*Originally posted by Andy A. *
**So, if FIRST were to some how bring the human players out of the player station, I would be open to the two coaches again. It’s just to crowded as it is, I’d like to see the human players seperated regardless of how many coaches we have.
**

You mean how it was before 2000?

My first time driving was this year, so I don’t know what it was like with 2 coaches, but I say we keep it at 1. It can get very confusing and hectic up there, and I think 2 people giving directions will only make it worse in most circumstances. Some people have suggested one coach directly tell the drivers what to do, and another focus on strategy. As far as I’m concerned, let the driver’s drive. They have a much better grasp of the actual situation with the robot then the coach does. A driver knows when he’s losing a pushing match, or a robot is malfunctioning, and where to go and when to turn, etc. without a coach. A coach is most valuable when he looks at the big picture all the time, and lets the driver handle the robot. The driver is always focused on his (or her) robot. The coach doesnt have that limitation, and can help the driver prioritize, decide on strategy decisions, and warn the driver of approaching threats(i.e. the other team’s robot). One person does this quite well. What might be more valuable is allowing a tech to be on feild, but not in the box. He can assist on loding/unloading the robot, making emergency repairs, replacing batteries, etc. During the match he should get to be nearby on the sidelines, with the best possible viewpoint safety will allow. From their he can see things the driver and spectator’s can’t, and use that knowledge to spot problems with the robot, strategy, or driving to help the team improve for the next match. This person can be a student or adult, and can allow some people that never would get up on stage a chance. Its worth noting that I’m a large supporter of a dedicated driving team, and those teams which allow all their students the chance to drive( and therefore have to deal with lots of inexperienced drivers) would probably find the 2nd coach more useful.

driver 2 (me) wasn’t needed our robot could be controlled by 1 person our human player was need though he was 6’ tall easy for him to put balls over the wall. Lauren our adult was good at watching things and telling us what we needed to do different. but i agree that there wasnt any room
additional student coach for the experience
but give us some space

*Originally posted by Andy A. *
Some one mentioned moving the human players out of the station and into their own ‘human player station’, either in the field or on the side lines, whatever.

Didn’t they have the human player in the a different spot during the year where they had the center tower that was the multiplier and there were the three scoring racks coming out of the center tower. I think it was 98.