What to do about accountability within team leadership: Mentors and Parents

FIRST General Forum
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I am new to robotics competitions. So when my son wanted to join a team, I started researching. What I have found out, does not leave me with feelings of enthusiasm.

Maybe this isn’t the venue for this discussion, if it is not, please point me in the correct direction. I would like to share what I have seen and get feedback from the community here: is this NORMAL? Should we just avoid this endeavor?

The Mentor(s) are volunteers, and a husband and wife team whose son is also on the team. There are no other coaches or staff.
They REFUSE to communicate with parents. ALL communication goes through the freshman through senior students.
Parents are barred from all practices, in any capacity. Silently observing in the wings is also discouraged.
Cuts can happen for any reason, at any time.
Parents with questions are encouraged to ask through the student. Contact between parents and coaches before or after practice is a distraction, and discouraged.
Coaches select who will go to events, no chaperones are asked for, none needed.
Volunteering is only on selected home event days, they will let you know.

I’ve spoken to the dean that is over this program, and that was ineffectual. Have you seen the meme with the dog in the burning house, “This is fine”? That is the most concise I can be about that interaction.

On the one hand, this is giving me the “Away. Run, don’t walk” vibe.
That same vibe has me worried for the other kids. Should I be? Is this normal? Are there no standards of oversight on the sport side?

What questions SHOULD I be asking, and what are my alternatives if my son wants to pursue this activity? or, just any advice.

Edit:
2023-09-09 - Thank you all for every single contribution! I will answer questions and respond tonight. I’m traveling today and I’m not finding my mobile editing skills up to this great response! Thanks again!
Some quick answers to questions I can recall. High school related team, VEX Over Under, only two adults (mentor/coach/parents).
I’ll get a better response ASAP. I’m reading every one and you are all making me feel much better about this being a good community.

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Hello! The unique thing about FRC is that every team is run differently, and sets their own standards for things like communicating with parents and so forth. What can be normal for one team can be completely different from the norms of another team. While what you have described is definitely not normal, at all, they’re not the first team to go this route.

Parental involvement is a huge strengthening factor to most teams. They can be mentors, volunteers, chaperones, or just the person who brings pizza to a late night meeting! In fact, several of my team’s most phenomenal mentors and helpers are parents of our students :blush:

What you describe doesn’t sound like the team is an inclusive or student led environment, which IMO is definitely something to be concerned about. Students should definitely not be subject to being randomly cut at will, as:

  1. That stifles the opportunity for learning from mistakes and growing

  2. Creates heavily reduced mentor accountability towards students.

Some other concerning factors are:

  1. The lack of adults seemingly there to supervise the students, Only two adults seems like an iffy number to do things like supervising students at competitions, especially if it’s larger team.

  2. The refusal to have any communication lines with the parents. As the legal guardians of the students, parents deserve to be informed of what’s going on with the team, and they also have the right to communicate with the adults running the program.

FIRST Robotics is truly an amazing program that impacts so many people, and I promise not every team out there is like this. As far as alternatives, searching for other FRC or FTC teams in the area is definitely a good place to start. Most teams will probably be very accommodating if you explain the situation to them and make the decision to switch.

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This is the proper venue for discussing this issue.

As Asha stated, there are about as many team structures and management methods as there are teams in FRC.

From your description, one would have to question the sustainability of this team and it’s current structure and management methods.

A question to ask is “will these two parents who appear to be the only people with any authority, continue running the team after their son graduates from the school?”

Another question to ask is “are the students, other than the son of the two parents running the team, having a positive experience?” Are they learning technical and/or life skills? Are they enthusiastic about participating on the team?

Some questions relating to timing. “When will the son of the two parents running the team graduate ?” and “when will your child graduate?”

To give you some perspective, there are many mentors and coaches who are still volunteering in this program because they see the value that it has brought to their children and are still selflessly volunteering long after their children have left high school. A smaller number volunteered even though they don’t have children or their children never participated in the program.

It is difficult to know what the true motivations are for the two parents running this team. There is a small possibility that the team your child is on is being run as a “benevolent dictatorship” and everyone is getting a benefit from participating. It is also quite likely that it is being run solely for the benefit of their son and it will all fall apart when the son stops participating on the team and those two parents also stop participating. The team would then have to go through a period of rebuilding itself, possibly adopting different team structure and management methods.

It appears that you are unhappy with how the team is being run. Depending on the answers to the questions on the timing and your personal desires, I can suggest two possibile courses of action.

You may want to look for alternative programs for your child (and their friends) such as FTC or others. Generally, the teams for these other programs are smaller. The costs are also much lower than for FRC. If teams for these other programs are not accessible to you (geography, school affiliation, etc.), you may want to consider starting a team in one of these other programs and running it the way you and the other participants want to run it.

You can choose to see if these parents leave the team in the near future, allowing others to step in and run the team in a way that is more to your liking. This can be a good opportunity for you and some of the other parents to grow and learn some new skills in areas such as management (like I am now). I feel it is healthy for children to see their parents experience personal growth as they experience their own growth.

It is ironic that you have used the word “accountability” in the title of your post. A small number of us are reading through and discussing a book about how to improve a child’s experiences on (sports) teams and the chapter that I just finished reading yesterday was about accountability.

I hope you are able to find a good solution for your situation.

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Most charitably, this sounds like a team whose leadership is in over its head and/or whose interpersonal skills make it difficult to retain help so they just put the walls up. I’ve been around such teams. It can be fixed, but it takes time.

Least charitably, it’s a youth protection disaster in the making.

I wouldn’t want to get involved in such a program, either as a mentor or hypothetical parent.

Forming a neighborhood group (or scouts program, or 4-H club) FIRST Tech Challenge seems like a compelling alternative if the school isn’t going to intervene and you’ve got a few other parents that want to throw in labor and funds. (Budgets are flexible in FTC, but US$3000 would be a stout campaign that wouldn’t lack for much.)

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As others have said, this is a really odd model for an FRC team. Without giving away info that could identify it I’d wonder: How many students? How long has the team been in operation? How is their won/lost/winning awards record over that time? (look them up on the Blue Alliance site). These are quantifiable data points that might help determine whether this is something to steer way clear of or a real oddity that is somehow - for now anyway - succeeding in a manner that is quite atypical.

But this would not answer two harder questions. Are the students learning things? This is the Prime Directive. And are they enjoying the experience?

On our team the current mentor pool is at 14. 6 have children on the team. 2 have grand children. 2 are returning team alumni. Four have no connection other than the shared enjoyment. A larger group helps with meals, outreach connections, etc.

For a mid sized team, 34 or so students I think this is fairly typical. With one trivial exception nobody is paid by the school system.

Involvement in FRC is a big leap. Study this situation carefully.

T

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How does this square with the husband and wife pair you mentioned above? I feel like something’s missing here.

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This alone is enough for me to be genuinely worried about the safety of students on the team. As others have mentioned, you are the legal guardian of your child, and have every right to ask questions (and demand answers) as you see fit in regards to your child; Especially concerning their safety.

Also, on the topic of not being allowed to attend events, all FRC events are open to the public (there were exceptions to this over COVID, but I believe holds true again everywhere now). While you may not be attending the event in an “official capacity” with the team, there would be nothing stopping you from going and spectating these public events.

One question I do have as it’s a little unclear to me currently, is this team affiliated with a school in any way? The comment about the program having a dean overseeing things makes me ask.

If this program is school affiliated, theres a lot in what you described that sounds like a liabilty nightmare for a school… barking more up that tree (attempting to speak to various school officials) would be beneficial if you do find yourself worried about other students on the team.

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+1 to this. Not wanting other adults around is a huge red flag.

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Just to avoid a death spiral, I want to unpack this slightly.

First off, we do not know that anything bad is happening in OP’s team. Like, everyone cool it with the torches and pitchforks for a minute.

Simultaneously, it does create a situation where there is more risk of that happening. Red flags shouldn’t always be an immediate abandon-ship, but they should provoke thought, questions, and caution until the situation is understood.

There is also the mentoring aspect. FIRST–and especially FRC–lives off good mentors contributing their time and knowledge to teams. If you just want to build a robot and tick the box that your school has a robotics program, there are vastly cheaper ways to go about that.

I would definitely be asking the school why this is the way it is, and move up the org chart if you get the shrug from the dean again. Setting aside any youth protection concerns, you might just be the outside force (to use Newton’s terms) that creates better experiences for the team.

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I find this response from the Dean troubling. It makes me think that the school is only interested in “ticking a box” as @Billfred speculated.

Are any of the other parents troubled by this situation? I encountered a lot of indifferent parents who only wanted a “daycare with robots” program to keep their children occupied after school when I mentored for a private school for a year.

If you are going to start a new team, I would suggest NOT basing it at the school, based on the Dean’s attitude. With that attitude, you are not likely to get any real, material support but will likely be saddled with a lot of rules and requirements i.e. being required to accept students who are a negative influence on the team.

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There are indeed some remarkable individuals involved in FRC. So closer scrutiny and ask the right questions. T

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To the original poster,

This year is my 21st involved in FIRST Robotics. I am a high school teacher and was one of two who originally founded team 1339; I have remained active with this team and am still one of the lead mentors.

For a FIRST Robotics Competition team to exist, FIRST headquarters only requires that two adults register as Lead Mentors 1 and 2, and those two pass a generic background check and agree to Youth Protection Program (YPP) requirements through their online training. Beyond that, FIRST does not require anything else. Teams can be school affiliated or not, can have additional mentors or not. Many teams register their additional mentors through the FIRST website but some do not register them, and FIRST does not check on this. Additional mentors also are not required by FIRST to pass background checks, only the Lead Mentors are. Team structure is entirely left to teams, including where and how often they meet, tool training, safety training, etc. FIRST has an online training for appropriate boundary setting but the videos are ten years old and are often ignored by teams.

Among the several thousand FRC teams in existence, many are constantly seeking to improve and apply best practices within their teams. Some provide public examples with documentation to assist here, in all aspects of the team. There are many dedicated and competent individuals who care very much an out student safety, well-being and about their experience within teams.

Unfortunately it is also true that there are poorly run teams and teams with alarming culture when it comes to student safety. There are mentors in over their heads. There are also mentors with predatory motivation. One of these was recently exposed due to a warrant being issued for his arrest, but he is not the only one like this; other cases have come to light over years and rumors circulate about some who do not ever get charged with crimes.

If I compare FIRST as a service organization to others, the one I most often think of is Baptist churches. They are by constitution independent entities, and each church runs as it sees fit without much oversight. Some are safe places for children and vulnerable people, others are simply refuges for abusers. I consider FIRST to be mostly running on assumptions of good will and good intent, which I am discovering is a bad way to do it. Without discounting the good hearts of many people within this organization and the teams, I would not trust it to be a place that can insure your child and others within the team you described can be safe. I would advise you to stay away from the team, and elevate your concerns to the school principal or district board. Compare the safety standards to what is expected in other activities such as sports or theater, and present the contrast. This team needs to be shut down and reorganized, or just shut down permanently.

Feel free to contact me if you’d like assistance.

Mr. Noble

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Sounds like the team at your school is bunk. Teams that are incredibly closed off and that have minimal mentorship usually don’t provide quality experiences for their students. The best teams in the world have wide mentor bases and are always looking for help. Certainly, a parent wanting to see what’s going on would be encouraged.

More practically, having only 2 people at the top, who are married to each other, is horrific. I had a similar situation in high school and it completely locks students out of conflict resolution short of just going to the vice principal and begging them to deal with it, which they often will not (as you found). Way too much potential for abuse, minor or major.

Ask your child if there’s another program at the school they can join.

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Everything said here is valid, and the short is your instincts are correct. For multiple reasons, this is a dangerous situation you should avoid. No questions to ask - just do due diligence to alert the school leaders of the situation.

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I agree with all these thoughtful posts and add that I and my family would not participate in these conditions. Your prospective team operates the opposite of what the team I’m on does (closed vs open).

I suppose it’s possible a two-person family run team could provide a good experience if the couple spends all their waking hours managing the team and have a vast knowledge of all things robotics. I’d still be concerned about the YPP aspect as my team requires 2 adults and not a couple. Are the students savvy enough to report any trouble? Why unnecessarily risk it, though?

The situation as you describe it is so odd that I’d ask a lot of questions about why things are as they are. (And then I’d run away from it.)

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I’d be very concerned about a team that that isn’t generally welcoming of parents or other adults getting involved. That said it’s not crazy to discourage parents from working directly with with their own children while on the team. It’s a high school program and students need to be able to interact with others without their parents hovering. In my experience most parents are fine mentoring or chaperoneing other students, but you occasionally get a parent who only wants to work with their own kid, and that’s usually bad for everyone especially the student in question.

The OP could ask about helping out with building a practice field, bringing snacks or something making it very clear that you’re not trying to stand watching your kid all the time. If that’s still discouraged then run screaming and try to find a community team or if you really want to put a lot of time in, start a community team (assume it will basically be a part time job but unpaid).

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I think one piece of missing information is which high school robotics competition this team competes in.

This forum is primarily focuses on the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). It’s would be very rare for an FRC team to have two adults total. Typical team sizes are 20+ students, and typical budgets are 10s of thousands of dollars and robots are 100+ lbs.

It seems more likely to me that this team is likely operating in either the FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC) or Vex Robotics Competition (VRC). Those robots are much smaller (10-40lbs), teams are smaller, and budgets are usually in the thousands rather then 10s of thousands. It would be much more common for an FTC or VRC team to have only 2 adults.

That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of other red flags.

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So I didn’t read through all the posts above but I’m sure there’s some great advice there, but I’ll throw in my 2cents here:

“Parents are barred from all practices, in any capacity. Silently observing in the wings is also discouraged.”

  • This makes sense to me, depending on your state and local laws. Here in NY and our districts any adults regardless of if they are a parent or not can’t be around the kids for any extended period of time unless they are background checked and finger printed. So other than a quick tour/check out of what’s going on we don’t allow parents either, and they are never to be left alone without an adult that hasn’t gone through the background check, this includes us walking them to the restrooms.

“Cuts can happen for any reason, at any time.”

  • I think this is ok as long as it’s laid out before hand, some teams are run like your typical competitive sports team than a club/activity. We personally have a rule like this and have to exercise it once a year for safety reasons.
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I think the issue there is that it isn’t “Parents are barred until they complete the appropriate background check and safety training”. If you only had two mentors and a parent wanted to volunteer would you flat out tell them no or would you explain the hurdles they had to clear to start mentoring and see if they were still interested?

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Agreed, but there wasn’t enough info here/maybe people just don’t know enough to ask which is why I brought it up. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, specially if they are just volunteers, so it’s possible that the training/communication on the volunteer’s end here isn’t ideal.

For our team, as part of our mandatory parent meeting we walk them through all of this information, the reasoning, and this process if they want to volunteer.

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