So, I’m sure everyone was excited to see a wheelchair using driver in the game animation, i was excited too… But as a real life, actual human (not a person shaped red blob) wheelchair user and driver, it has occurred to me that having a wheelchair user in the game animation is problematic. Why? Because driving is not actually wheelchair accessible in real life. The driver station is WAY too tall! It’s an attempt to get brownie points without actually putting in the effort to increase access.
The average wheelchair user’s sightline is about 40" tall. The driver station is only a few inches shorter than that! Try seeing the cone and cube nodes while being both half the height and further back than the other drivers. It’s a literal impossibility. The “ramp” that was provided only gave me an extra 4 ish inches of height, yep that definitely will overcome the difference between sitting and standing! (sarcasm). Ended up having to use a really tall stool but i’m an ambulatory user so just because that option was available for me doesn’t mean all wheelchair users can just transfer to a taller chair.
There is a small note in the rulebook about how events may have ramps quote unquote “designed for” wheelchair users. Yeah, clearly designed without consulting a single wheelchair user. Where is the human centered design process???
Who is in charge of this stuff at first? I would like to get in contact with them to help them work through the current issues (I run the dpof server so have an entire discord of disabled frc students available to help design ramps and discuss needs.).
I understand your point and can definitely see the need for improvement.
Making a “one size fits all” solution would be very problematic for FIRST, because there are all sorts of disabilities that require mobility assistance. Perhaps people who are driving robots that require wheel chairs or other assistance should consider bringing their own. I’m fairly certain events would absolutely zero problem storing it field side so you don’t have to carry it back and forth, and it’s a fairly easy item to build to whatever height you need, especially if you’re building a field element with lumber anyway.
I don’t think sarcasm is necessary to communicate your issue. If you find the current setup problematic, then contact FIRST. I’m sure they will work with you to address the issue. They may even allow the person in the wheelchair to start on the ramp if you can demonstrate the need.
This is an excellent point and one that may not have an easy solution at this time. While the event rules specify a ramp, that might well end up with the problems that you noted, i.e., it wouldn’t really be tall enough to get a wheelchair user up to a height that approaches that of a standing driver. Most driver’s eyes are likely to be in the 60" height range on average (for a standing height of 5’6") so to get to that you’d need to boost a wheelchair driver up 20" off of floor level. Doing that with a ramp is pretty problematic, given that this is a pretty tall ramp and would thus need to be pretty long (and thus large) to not have a prohibitive slope to it. It might make sense to have some kind of lift platform (electric, hydraulic) to do the job, but these are still large (though smaller than a ramp would need to be) and they’re very expensive pieces of equipment even for a district to buy (about $6,000) because they’re really designed to lift people up for access to things like stages and other areas where the lift height is much greater than what’s needed here. It’s a tough problem, one that a team might well get some serious credit for solving, since it is really an engineering problem that needs a good solution.
That’s not the problem, the ramp is just nowhere near high enough to overcome a foot or so difference.
The tried to do that already, they just did it incredibly badly. So we need a better one size fits all because it’s better than the current one or nothing.
Edit: I’m sorry if my use of sarcasm came off as aggressive, that’s how i communicate normally in a lighthearted way.
I can bring my own no problem. My issue is, if first advertises that they provide access, they need to provide said access.
I can absolutely bring my own solution but if they are gonna advertise a ramp it better be a good ramp.
There is definitely a need for some sort of hydraulic lift, or honestly even a platform you could be lifted on could work in a pinch (better than nothing).
There may be a grant available from somewhere to fund this sort of thing.
A fantastic example of a lack of disabled people involved with design. The ibot had a tendency to not fit into places or through doorways, plus it was crazy expensive and insurance doesn’t pay for it. Disabled people aren’t exactly a clientele known for a large amount of disposable income lol
My first thought was First should provide Ibots to events.
Me Too.
As a first step I would file a NMIR at every Event. Until First realizes it is going to take more than inclusive talk nothing is going to happen. Finding a solution that is both safe and adequate is not going to be easy.
And we have a student now in 9th grade that has a sightline more like 20" tall or something. Definitely not average, but he was also on drive team on our middle school FTC team. Visibility and accessibility is much better with that field design. But this also shows how difficult a one-size-fits-all solution is unless they redesign the alliance station wall.
Omg i wish!
Technically speaking, that would be not feasible since wheelchair users each have specific custom cushioning and positional needs finely tuned by an OT for them, so first would be essentially purchasing ibots for each driver that needs one, which sounds expensive… But on the other hand, the stair climbing looks fun! Lol
I would assume a 20" boost would be better than 5" or nothing boost though?
One size fits all is so tricky but if first were to make something for the average user and then provide specs in the game manual, people could figure out exactly if it would work for them. I mean, I do fine with a tall chair, but I had no way of knowing what the ramp would be like so my first time driving I was woefully unprepared.
Have you attempted to reach out to your regional/district event directors prior to the events you are attending to see what available options they would be able to provide at the event venues? I would think they would be willing to provide as much assistance as needed if they were made aware of students who need special accommodations at their events if they were informed ahead of time.
Something like this can maybe be adapted. I have seen these on buses before that fold flat vertical in a few minutes as well.
Another issue here is what is on the field itself. For someone in a wheelchair, even “short” field elements will present a challenge to see over. In 2019 when I was much shorter, I could barely see over the alliance wall, much less the cargo ship. I understand that the intention is sometimes to make things more difficult to see, but there are certain circumstances when something the height of something becomes selective and exclusionary rather than presenting a universal challenge.
Full disclosure: Im OP’s partner, so i’m not pulling this information out of the void.
FIRST WA did provide a wheelchair ramp at an offseason that OP drove at. However, the ramp only raised him a few inches and didn’t let him see tape lines that a standing driver would have seen. A stool was then taken from the venue and used in place of the ramp. And then at another local offseason another stool was taken from the venue and used for this purpose. However, that is not exactly a great solution, as it relies on the venue having a stool of the right height and so on.
I took some photos that show OP and the height difference between him and other members of his alliance in both his chair + ramp, and with the stool. (for context, the other person with the flag cape standing next to him is 5’6")
An additional consideration is that OP had to be in front of the auto line the whole time, both with the ramp and wheelchair, and stool, as getting into position with both would have taken longer than an abled person just taking the few steps to cross the auto line.
Again, that’s not the problem. I did in fact reach out to the event organizers and we eventually figured out a solution for me, but first is currently (falsely) advertising that all events can provide ramps/access. If they weren’t advertising it, it wouldn’t be an issue.
As an FTA - I’m happy to allow any accessibility accommodations near the field that appear to be safe, do not violate any rules, and do not significantly impede other teams or volunteers working near you. All the FTAs I know would be happy to do the same.
I recommend bringing something with you to the event that supports your needs. It is very difficult to have a one-size fits all solution with the incredible variety of accessibility needs out there. I’ve seen drive team members successfully use the ramp and be reasonably happy with the configuration, but I also am keenly aware of other situations where it simply wasn’t a good option. Having your own option guarantees that what you need is available (though I’d also recommend running ideas past someone like your regional director or district PDO first to make sure it will be okay).
Edit - I’m also going out on a bit of a limb here, but I suspect that two of the factors that went into the current height are:
When the ramp was initially designed, USB game controllers were not very common, so the height had to accommodate a reasonable variety of wheelchairs in a way that would allow an individual to still comfortably use joysticks that were on the driver station shelf.
Concern for safety is also real if it is too tall - a wheelchair rolling off a 4" high ramp is probably not going to be catastrophic. A 1 foot tall ramp increases that risk quite a bit.
This year was a particularly bad year for it, because all the places I was trying to put stuff were not visible (apart from the very tippy top of some cone nodes on the top row)
Our bot scores cubes on the hybrid nodes so I was scoring based on a mental estimation of where the stuff probably was every time (i did score quite a few despite that tho!)
A very fair point, and another point for hydraulic lifts with walls. However, imo 4" of extra height isn’t really worth all the setup of the ramp it really doesn’t make that much difference so why even offer it? If first said “as access needs vary, contact your event organizer to discuss options” and provided the teeny ramp as an option, great. But when they say barely more about it than “we have ramps” it’s a complete scramble at comp to figure out what to do because everyone assumes it’s taken care of.
it really doesn’t make that much difference so why even offer it? If first said “as access needs vary, contact your event organizer to discuss options” and provided the teeny ramp as an option, great. But when they say barely more about it than “we have ramps” it’s a complete scramble at comp to figure out what to do because everyone assumes it’s taken care of.