I got into a conversation earlier with the captain of my team about Einstein. We had a long discussion about the merits of various robot types and their advantages in this game. I am curious as to the Chief Delphi community’s expectations for this year. Without suggesting specific team numbers or names (as the field will likely contain at least SOME of the usual suspects), what will the alliances that compete on the championship stage (and ultimately the finals) be composed of?
In my opinion there are four to five basic robot types this year that are anyway capable in the game, and some combinations thereof. Based on the three regional events I have attended (Autodesk and CWA with my team and Seattle as a spectator), and more match videos then I care to admit (generally watched during English class), it seems that Human Loaders with fast drive trains have been dominating the field and I would be surprised not to see one in the winning alliance. Paired with a strong full court shooter and a good defender, they seem unstoppable. That said, the endgame is essential. If the same fast human loader is able to climb and dump for 50 in the last 30 or so seconds, I can’t imagine an alliance that can shut them down easily.
Human Loaders
In order for a human loader to be effective, it seems like they must have a drive train to match. Teams that are able to drive quickly and put up the big points have dominated every regional I have seen. In Seattle, it was 1983, in Portland 955, and in CWA 1318, although they were knocked out in the Semis. 1114, while of course always incredible, by consistently making trips from the feeder to the pyramid and back (along with their 30 pt climb & 20 pt dump) is absolutely unstoppable.
Full Court Shooters
While both easy to defend and hard to dial in, a GOOD full court shooter can put up serious points. In Seattle, 948 absolutely destroyed the competition by hanging out the in the protected feeder station and putting Frisbee after Frisbee into the 3 point goal. Teams that attempted to defend them with hastily constructed shield were easily repelled by defense, and in elims, 1983 made it very hard for the blue alliance to shut down both robots. In ellensburg and portland, 1425 played commandingly, making themselves very hard to defend and outscore. A team that can both full court shoot and shoot from the pyramid has a double advantage here. 118 is perhaps best equipped to fill this spot on Einstein.
Climbers
This game lends itself well to specialization. Most 30 point climbers have a very specific focus and it is challenging for them to both shoot and climb even if they have the capability for both. It seems as if a 30 point climb, while essential to win, is only valuable if accomplished quickly. All scoring options have a theoretical cap. Assuming that the time for a trip of disks is low, human load shooters are only bounded by the number of disks. 30 point climbers, even if they are the fastest in the world, can only gain 30 points, 50 if they dump, per match. Only 4 teleop trips by a fast shooter can outscore this. In portland, 955 was making more than that and 1114 certainly has. I do not believe that dedicated climbers have a space on Einstein, but a team like 254 or 1114, who can both shoot and climb effectively are in a very very good position.
Floor Pickup
At the regionals I have attended, I have seen very few floor pickup machines. I don’t know if this a function of strategy or difficulty of execution but it seems very rare. Although many of the powerhouse teams have the capability, they use it infrequently. It seems like after the discs in the center of the field are depleted, it is not worth the extra time and ambiguity to attempt to floor pickup. This is something I am very unsure about however, and it could have a much larger role in STL than I anticipated with teams such as 1986 and 2056 concentrating on it.
My guess for Einstein is that the strongest alliance will be composed of a robot that can human load and then rapid-fire shoot and then go for the 30 point climb and 20 point dump, a robot that can both full court and pyramid shoot effectively, and then a robot that is able to play very strong defense and possibly floor load.
What have you guys seen at regionals you’ve attended and what do you hope to see on Einstein?
If I was picking an alliance likely to go far (and I do mean far), I would pick the following:
Defense/climber/dumper, preferably with an autonomous shooting mode. I rank them first because they are the rarest of the rare–a fast 30+20 climb that can drive around and defend much of the match. I’ve seen just about one or two. (If none are available, take a #2 robot instead.)
Shooter with floor pickup. Human load, no problem. Floor pickup, even better–starve your opponents and get your first cycle in faster. However, an excellent automode is a MUST for this one. Fast speed for quick cycles, and a 10-point hang round out this one. Think 1114 and 1717 for this one–something on that order. (Also known as a “cycle runner”.)
Either a second (third?) one of #2, or a dialed-in full-court shooter. I’ll go with the FCS here; objective is to get the discs into the goals, draw defense, and if you can’t get them in the goals to get them to where robot 2 can pick them up. Have robot 1 play some blocking on occasion. Ideally, able to run cycles instead of going long if they want to, 10-point hang. Oh, and good automode–no sense wasting discs.
I would say that there will be at least 1 alliance like this on Einstein; that is, one climb specialist, one cycle runner, one full-court shooter that can run cycles. I also see three good cycle runners on an alliance; that can go very deep. Two cycle runners and one climb or full-court specialist will also do well.
What I expect not to see is alliances with more than one climb specialist, or more than one full-court shooter. (Exception: FCS robots that can run cycles not counted in FCS counting.)
A floor feeder is a necessity in a good alliance. There will always be frisbees on the ground for them to pick up. Good climb perferable
Full Court Shooter- not many out there, and consistent shooters are even slimmer. A good full court shooter paired with a floor feeder will put every frisbee in the goal. 10 point climb?
Defense/Climb Bot- a defense bot is almost a necessity to keep other robots from blocking the FCS. The full court shooters are ineffective with a piece of lexan sitting in front of it. This bit can also be used to combat another FCS. A climb is preferable
No alliance will make it to Einstein without a floor loading robot. If they do, they’ve already lost before teleop begins. You can’t start in a 24 point hole.
I see a winning alliance at championships having three particular robots:
1)
7 Disk autonomous
Shoots fast and accurately
50 Point endgame
2)
5 Disk autonomous using centerline frisbees
Shoots fast and accurately
10 point hang(ideally 30 point hang)
3)
3 Disk autonomous
Shoots fast and accurately(yes no defense;))
10 point hang
Floor loading is an obvious must, and so is climbing; but I think flexibility will win it all this year. With defense playing such a vital role, the team who can keep everyone guessing will always come out on top.
One robot must do a 50-point play.
One robot must do a 40-point play. (That’s like a 50-point play, but with 2 discs since the partner got four. I don’t see teams hedging on 45-45.)
One robot must do a floor pickup autonomous.
All three robots must have their autonomous dead-on and timed in sync.
I think you’ll see a lot of joint climbs on the practice field, shades of triple balance practice last year.
Someone will have an 84" wall, even if it sits on the cart the whole time.
I tend to agree with this, however adding to it:
2. FCS that is PRECISE (meaning 85%+) with the ability to go to pyramid if blocked. This allows him to “pin-down” a deefnding robot, who will try to block him, and so he can move to pyramid.
All robots should have AT LEAST 10 climb points, and at least one of them should have mrore than a 3-disc auto. Regardless, for all of them - auto should be perfect…
This might be an oddball sleeper alliance, but i could see a 7 disk auton floor pickup robot along with two full court shooters taking the bill. The key to this alliance heading to Einstein would be the work of the human players. The trick to this one is that most alliances will not have two dedicated “blockers” to stop both full courts. One can be in the protected zone with the other across the field. To stop both an alliance would have to let the floor pickup bot have free reign of the field.
On a slightly similar but close enough topic. Will a below seeded 6th alliance have a greater chance at Winning Einstein due to the different amount of strategy options that this game provides?
I don’t necessarily agree with that. The number 1 alliance at Alamo did not advance to finals with their full offensive team. They were composed of:
1477 with a guaranteed 3 frisbee auto and tried to get the middle 4
624 with a 5-7 frisbee auto
457 with a 3 frisbee auto
They started the semis with 70+ pts and still lost against a quick shooter from 4063, 2789 playing defense and allowing 2468 to shoot full court. It was close, but the primarily offensive team was upset.
Also just realized you were at Alamo so you were able to see this occur.
The 1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.
I would say they were fully offensive because 457 ended up shooting at times and did not play absolute defense. I also understand Alamo was not on the level of Einstein, just that the fully offensive team will potentially fail. Slowing down the other team in this game, unless they are nimble and fit under the pyramid, can be very easy if you allow yourself the opportunity. I see it from last year, although game object deprivation cannot be accomplished this year, slowing down the other team by playing defense took 16’s alliance to the top.
I personally don’t agree with a full out offensive team, especially when one of those robots is a FCS. When you are limited to 45 discs + floor pick-up your alliance will starve itself before the end of the match due to your FCS’ ability to unload every few seconds. Instead, an “enforcer” could be used to protect the FCS from any blockers. After all, the maximum height of a FCS will always be shorter than the maximum height of a defender. Once the FCS has don’t its job, the defender has the time to do its climb, preferably a climb-and-dump or just a 30.
Therefore, an alliance that could easily make Einstein is:
A tall full-court shooter that is relatively accurate.
A floor pick-up robot that can clean up any misses and shoot 7 discs in autonomous.
A quick climber with a drivetrain strong enough to hold up against robots trying to go through it. Preferably with dumping capabilities.
I think that the ideal alliance would have very close to the setup we had with our winning alliance at South Florida (180-1902-1251)
Full court shooter capable of pyramid shooting in case of a “SPAM Filter” (84 inch blocker named after one made by a team trying to stop 180’s shooter)
Cycling pyramid shooter
Defense and Floor pickup
Essentially the full court and pyramid shooter score until they run out of discs (Generally with 55-50 seconds to go) while the third defends, at that point the two offensive robots defend and if one has pickup they go to do that along with the third robot. The other switches to defense.
At least one must have floor pickup capable of 7 disc autonomous.
Preferably one offensive bot has a 50 point climb.
The winning alliance will have to be a very versatile alliance capable of playing 3 robot offense or full defense in order to counter the strategies of whatever team they play against.
In order to win matches you do not have to score your maximum number of points, you just have to make the score difference a maximum, which is the reason the 180-25-16 alliance did so well. They prevented their opponents from scoring quickly and maximized their ability to score quickly that is the one thing that will always remain true no matter what game.
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