Why all the fuss?

FIRST General Forum
1

Posted by Marc DeSchamp.

Other on team #125, someone who remembers Ramp N Roll, from Northeastern University and Textron Systems with the kids from Boston Latin School, Brookline High, and Milton Academy.

Posted on 1/20/2000 9:59 PM MST

I hate to sound callous, but why all the fuss about a level field, and fairness to the rookie teams? I was on a rookie team once (two practically) and we had a great first year experience. We had our share of ‘rookie troubles,’ and other, non-rookie teams were definitely better prepared. Sometimes they did better because of it, sometimes we surprised ourselves and everyone by beating ‘the big, bad veteran.’
Realistically, the chances of a rookie team winning the competition are small (heck the chances of any team winning are about 100 to 1), it’s a simple matter of experience in design, driving, and strategy, with a dash of statistics and chance thrown in the mix. If a new expansion team comes up in pro sports, noone expects them to go win the championship that very year. If they beat the odds, and win, great! But it’s not expected of them, nor is it expected of any rookie team in FIRST.
Pardon my rambling, but basically what I’m saying is that a rookie team is a rookie team, regardless as to how many attempts FIRST makes to ‘level the field.’ A team without any FIRST experience is still going to be doing more learning than anything their rookie year, and teams who have been in it for a while are still going to understand how things work better and be surprised less by the things that (always!) come up.
With regards specifically to the issue of the spare parts, the rookie teams are still going to suffer from ignorance that is not their fault and is NOT PREVENTABLE (even veteran teams get caught with their pants down, and alot more than we’d like).
Last year I switched from the Plymouth North team, a veteran team with quite a bit of engineering experience, to the Northeastern team, at the time a second year team with a ton of heart and a bit to learn. In that transition, I never once felt that I was at a disadvantage for being on a younger, less experienced team (we even did a little bit of surprising last year in Hartford). You have to walk before you can run, and I think that everyone involved in this program should understand this.
So, ‘The message?’ you ask. If it ain’t broke… you know the rest.

2

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 1/21/2000 4:55 AM MST

In Reply to: Why all the fuss? posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/20/2000 9:59 PM MST:

Marc,

I have often made similar arguments.

The advantages that flow from being a veteran and the dis-advantages rookie teams have are almost too many to list.

Even if we do compile such a list, 99% of the stuff on it would be beyond FIRST’s power to ‘level the playing field.’

Even with 40% rookie teams every year for the forseeable future, I still recommend that we give up the fiction of making things fair for rookie teams.

Rules in FIRST should stand or fall on their own merits without regard to appeals to being fair to rookies.

This competition is UNFAIR to rookies. Okay, let’s admit it and move on with what is best for FIRST in the long run.

Joe J.

3

Posted by Beccy Rigden (Duct Tape).

Student on team #166 from Merrimack High.

Posted on 1/21/2000 8:47 AM MST

In Reply to: well said. posted by Joe Johnson on 1/21/2000 4:55 AM MST:

At this point there isn’t much FIRST can do. It’s just the way of the game. Rookie teams won’t be rookie teams forever so the’ll have to learn just like the rest of us . . .

Beccy
co-captain #166

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Posted by Justin.

Other on team Blue Lightning Alum from RWU sponsored by FIRST-A-holics Anonymous.

Posted on 1/21/2000 10:11 AM MST

In Reply to: well said. posted by Joe Johnson on 1/21/2000 4:55 AM MST:

I to have made this argument on a number of occasions. FIRST isn’t fair…no sport is…and we can’t blame all of the unfairness on the game or FIRST.

Amen,

Justin

5

Posted by Joshua Berthiaume.

Student on team #131, Chaos, from Manchester Central HS and Osram Sylvainia.

Posted on 1/21/2000 12:30 PM MST

In Reply to: AMEN!! posted by Justin on 1/21/2000 10:11 AM MST:

No matter how hard first tries it is almost impossible to make it fair for everyone, when your talking 400 or so teams, you can’t please them all, we are all going to have a very unlucky moment. Out team last year finishe 6th in the eliminate matches and seeded 17th, we won no awards, we won the semi, and lost in the quarter final because of two rematches, and then when we wanted a rematch and they wouldnt give it to us. So it isn’t like the vertren teams don’t get screwed, cause we do. So in reagrds to that first isn’t fair enough to all teams, it is in the nature of the game, to have bad luck.

Josh
Team 131

6

Posted by Ken Patton.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]

Engineer on team #65, The Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 1/21/2000 3:03 PM MST

In Reply to: well said. posted by Joe Johnson on 1/21/2000 4:55 AM MST:

I agree with you guys on this, but I have one concern. If we make it so clear that its tough for rookies, there might be less rookies. So, my opinion is that we should keep talking about making things fair (and trying to do them when it makes sense), because it will encourage new teams to jump in.

Ken

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Posted by Jason Morrella.

Coach on team #254, Cheesy Poofs/Bay Bombers, from Broadway High and NASA Ames.

Posted on 1/22/2000 3:30 AM MST

In Reply to: one concern posted by Ken Patton on 1/21/2000 3:03 PM MST:

I agree with you Ken.
What I don’t get is this - it seems most veterans keep saying that even with all the efforts FIRST makes to give the rookie teams a level playing field, the veterans do - and always will- have an advantage. If this is so, shouldn’t the veteran teams be happy they will always have an advantage over newer teams instead of hoping FIRST relaxes rules to give them an even bigger advantage.
I agree, no matter what FIRST does, veteran teams - especially ones with money - will always have a much easier time being successful. Let me make one thing clear, I think it’s great that many of the well known veteran teams have acquired so many resources and a great deal of funding. I think they set an example for all of us as to what our programs can become over the years. However, the fact that FIRST makes it clear they want to create as much of a level field as possible gives not only rookie teams, but returning teams with little or no resources the feeling they have a chance each year if they work hard and have good ideas. I hope FIRST does everything they can in the future to level the field, even if it somewhat limits the inherent advantages my team may have as we get more experience and hopefully more resources / funding.

  • and in response to the few posts I have read which say rookie teams will never have a chance - be careful not to under-estimate all rookies… a few regionals were won by rookie teams last year and some made it to the playoffs at the Nationals - so clearly there can be a ‘Rudy’ or ‘Rocky’ story every once in awhile.

Jason

: I agree with you guys on this, but I have one concern. If we make it so clear that its tough for rookies, there might be less rookies. So, my opinion is that we should keep talking about making things fair (and trying to do them when it makes sense), because it will encourage new teams to jump in.

: Ken

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering & Robotics), from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/22/2000 6:00 AM MST

In Reply to: Re: one concern posted by Jason Morrella on 1/22/2000 3:30 AM MST:

I agree with you wholehartedly on this issue. Veterans and especially those with money, will have an advantage over rookie or poorly funded teams. If FIRST was to relax the rules, it would only make this gap wider. And as for those rookies out there…I’ve seen some beat some of the best veteran teams, so I will not underestimate you guys! :slight_smile: I remember when my team was a rookie only 3 short years ago, and how we have changed and developed in the past two competitons has been immense. Now in our 3rd year of competition, we like to think we know what’s going on and if there are any teams out there, rookie and veterans alike, that need any help, feel free to stop by pit #69. :slight_smile:

Good Luck,
Lora

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Posted by Daniel.

Coach on team #483, BORG, from Berkeley High School and NASA Ames & UC Berkeley.

Posted on 1/21/2000 2:24 PM MST

In Reply to: Why all the fuss? posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/20/2000 9:59 PM MST:

I suppose I’m the odd man out on this issue but here’s my thinking:

When I was leading the Gunn Robotics Team last year I tried my hardest to please everyone. Now, GRT is no small team. With 60 high school students you can’t expect to get 100% buy-in.

After realizing this, I could have chosen two paths. My first option was to simply say, ‘well since I can’t get everyone happy, I’ll just settle with what I’ve got.’ However, I think that would be wholly the wrong approach.

No matter how low your chances are at making everyone happy, you can’t simply use that as an excuse not to try. No matter the odds, we can always get closer. I think any fuss brought up about making the playing field level represents a similar thinking. We can’t have 100% buy-in, but what about going for the MAXIMUM. Don’t give up simply on account of it being difficult. It may be harder than building a robot, but it’s certainly as important.

SO…

I beg of you, don’t stop fussing! Constructive criticism is what builds a masterpiece.

-DL

10

Posted by Russell Pauley.

Coach on team #344 from Phoebus High School.

Posted on 1/22/2000 5:42 PM MST

In Reply to: Why all the fuss? posted by Marc DeSchamp on 1/20/2000 9:59 PM MST:

I do not think FIRST is unfair to rookie teams. Real quick my background. I was the Driver for the 1997 FIRST Phoebus high school team. That was our rookie year. Well that year was our last for some time due to funding and other problems. This year I am back as a coach and we are back in. As the only person on the team that has been in the competiton before I call ourself’s rookies. I don’t think we have it any harder then anyone else. The only problem we have is money. As more rookie teams I think. We just got enought money to go to a local regional that we can drive to. We are hopeing to find more money after this year by showing off the robot to local companys so we can goto more compitions next year.

Russell

P.S. Any companys interested in funding a team in the Hampton roads/VA area please email me at rpauley@cnu.edu.

: I hate to sound callous, but why all the fuss about a level field, and fairness to the rookie teams? I was on a rookie team once (two practically) and we had a great first year experience. We had our share of ‘rookie troubles,’ and other, non-rookie teams were definitely better prepared. Sometimes they did better because of it, sometimes we surprised ourselves and everyone by beating ‘the big, bad veteran.’
: Realistically, the chances of a rookie team winning the competition are small (heck the chances of any team winning are about 100 to 1), it’s a simple matter of experience in design, driving, and strategy, with a dash of statistics and chance thrown in the mix. If a new expansion team comes up in pro sports, noone expects them to go win the championship that very year. If they beat the odds, and win, great! But it’s not expected of them, nor is it expected of any rookie team in FIRST.
: Pardon my rambling, but basically what I’m saying is that a rookie team is a rookie team, regardless as to how many attempts FIRST makes to ‘level the field.’ A team without any FIRST experience is still going to be doing more learning than anything their rookie year, and teams who have been in it for a while are still going to understand how things work better and be surprised less by the things that (always!) come up.
: With regards specifically to the issue of the spare parts, the rookie teams are still going to suffer from ignorance that is not their fault and is NOT PREVENTABLE (even veteran teams get caught with their pants down, and alot more than we’d like).
: Last year I switched from the Plymouth North team, a veteran team with quite a bit of engineering experience, to the Northeastern team, at the time a second year team with a ton of heart and a bit to learn. In that transition, I never once felt that I was at a disadvantage for being on a younger, less experienced team (we even did a little bit of surprising last year in Hartford). You have to walk before you can run, and I think that everyone involved in this program should understand this.
: So, ‘The message?’ you ask. If it ain’t broke… you know the rest.

11

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER (Helping Youth Pursue Engineering & Robotics), from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 1/22/2000 7:41 PM MST

In Reply to: Re: Why all the fuss? posted by Russell Pauley on 1/22/2000 5:42 PM MST:

Good luck in your regional, and in finding more funding…I hope that someday we may be able to compete :slight_smile: I’ve driven on my team since our rookie year three short years ago, and I’m glad to hear that your team is back on your feet.

Lora

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