Ok, I can remember back in the day (3-4 years ago) we used little police looking red and blue lights. Now we have to use these huge flags that have to stick 18 inches above the top of the robot. If you ask me they are a pain. I am just wondering why FIRST changed to using flags instead of lights? First of all they were much easier, and you didn’t have to worry about getting them from the crew, and returning them. Wouldn’t it just be much easier to have either a light with both red and blue LED’s like in 2006? Or just changeable covers for the lights like from 2005 to the start? I was just wondering what you all thought about that subject? Please Comment.
Totally agree. These flags suck. I think the idea was so that the crowd and the refs can more easily tell which bot was on which teams. This is easier to tell from flags as opposed to the little LEDs… But I think that the dome lights were just as easy to see if not more than the flags.
Jacob
We changed to flags because the LEDs weren’t nearly bright enough in a well lit area. Also, the rotating lights were extremely heavy and counted towards your weight limit. They also tended to shatter often and that posed a hazard for everyone around.
Plus, the rotating lights sucked up a lot of juice from the battery.
Even though they looked cool, their drawbacks outweighed their benefits.
They could make it not count toward your weight, like your battery currently is (remember, they used to up your allowed weight and make you weigh your battery with your bot?) They could do the same thing with the dome light.
These looked cooler and made it very easy to tell which alliance a robot was on. They also didn’t risk falling out, breaking, and don’t cause the team the trouble of having a 4 ft. long piece of pipe coming out of the base of their bot because if the flag is attached to the ramp which folds down, then the flag falls out :rolleyes: (ok maybe that was too specific)…
We should start a poll. I say yay to changing back to the dome lights.
Jacob
I’m pretty sure we moved away from the dome lights because teams were annoyed with them as well. They took up a fairly large chunk of real estate, weren’t exactly light, sucked power at a fairly distressing rate, and had interchangeable domes that would get lost and/or broken. In addition, if your robot was shorting, tripping breakers, etc. then the dome light wasn’t working, and the field controllers didn’t have any idea what color your robot was. I think they were a good solution at the time, but I think light, small, unpowered colored flags are probably better, despite the problems teams had with them this one year. You’ll note that most teams didn’t have much of a problem with it last year, even though that was the first year we had to do it. I know it was annoying to get a ringer stuck on it this year, but I figure that’s not a likely occurance in the future. The GDC does have this annoying habit of completely changing the game from year to year, you know.
Before there were fancy lights for robots, teams used to use interchangable colored panels. They were red or blue, 4"x6" polycarbonate panels with your team number on them. (I tried to find the manual, but no luck) That meant you had to have a large area to stick the panel onto the robot.
So, which method would you prefer to use:
Flags, LEDs, Dome lights, or Panels?
No one can honestly say that these flags are “safer” than the dome lights, because we’ve all seen the shoot 30+ feet at times. The dome lights may suck power, take up space, and add weight…but they really do distinguish teams. Out of the 3 systems I’ve experienced (domes, LEDs, flags), domes were by far my favorite. As for the radio cutting out, and the light not turning on…theres still a red/blue cover on it…i think those 2 colors are fairly distinguishable, even without the light on.
just my 2 cents
I like the flags the most. The only real probably I have with them is with this years game, because a poorly thrown ringer can ruin your match if it gets stuck on your flag.
Advantages of the flag:
Light
Easiest to see because they arnt buried in the robots
No wiring needed
Easier then the gumballs to mount
Dont break (though they do fly out a lot of the time)
I remember more complaints about the gumball light then anything back when we used it. I also understand that it was real hard to see the LED lights, they were always buried in robots and not bright enough.
I seem to remember last year people embracing the flags. It’s just the problem with ringers getting stuck on them that has people annoyed with them this year. That’s game dependent, not an actual problem with the flags themselves.
The dome lights were pretty cool, but they were a pain. The gels would shatter, crack, and snap. They were huge, and hard to find places to mount.
The flags are easy. Simple to mount (unless you have a deploying ramp, once again, game problem, not flag), no power, no wiring, light, cheap. Plus it’s easy to add the yellow flag when needed. How would that be done with lights?
At LSR, 118 could remove the tubes if they got stuck. It was awesome.
I liked the lights. The flags were okay as well. The only thing I disliked about the flags is, well a few things. One being in the rule is states where they have to be placed, and some teams disregard that and no penalty is assest. I think if they go against any rule, they should get a penalty (not competitng til it’s correct) Also, they fall out and become a pain. I know with our robot, being such a low ground clearance, running over that even small thing can mess us up. A good thing is they were easier to see than the light; a driver didn’t have to spend time wondering who was on their alliance to block by looking on the side for the light.
As per the light, sometimes it was hard to see them. I mean drivers aren’t going to be focusing on those small lights to see who they will block or help (depending on their alliance). Also, like said, it used battery power. I’d like to have all that power go to the robot itself and not the light as well.
Maybe there is some way something can be made that is small like the light, as visible as the flag, and won’t fall off the robot. Just my two cents.
Most people seem to not like the flags because the ringers would get caught it but that is an aspect of this particular game. If you could carry more than one ringer, people would not have minded nearly as much. If you got a ringer caught on you, most of the time it was because the HP was not paying attention to where the robots were and threw wildly. As for the flags becoming projectiles this is often an aspect of poor Robot design. Don’t put the flag where the arm will flip it. Of course there are exceptions (like getting caught by a spider leg) but these were very rare.
I should not be held responsible for the contect of any post…even my own.
The flags do exactly what they are supposed to do. Make the alliances easy to identify. They do not break and they do not use power. They do have two problems: 1) ringers get stuck on them, as said before, that is a function of this years game and probably will not affect next years game; 2) they fly through the air, last year we drilled two holes through the top end of the PVC Pipe and put a piece of surgical tubing through the holes to hold flag in place.
What we need is a way to better attach the flags. Under ideal circumstances the flag should be completely above the highest point on the robot in its’ starting configuration (I have seen many that do not, my guess is that you will not see that in Atlanta). Why not have flags with poles of various lenghts (2’, 3’, 4’ etc.) that could attach to your robot at the most conveinient place depending on your design? The flags could have a mouting bracket attached to the bottom that you could screw into a FIRST supplied mouting block that you locate on your robot. A simple 4 start course thread would make attaching the flag very fast.
OCCRA (Oakland County Competitive Robotics Association) used flags several years ago and to this date when the lights became unavailable by the MFG.
There were issues with the lights as there are issues with the flags or even the LED’s.
All in all the flags seem the easiest way to get quick recognition of which robot is which for the refs and the Tech staff.
I say keep the flags in future games.
Flags, teams just need to make better mounts
use a shim or something
when an led got hit they would always break and some times glow green :yikes:
They broke, if there was an intrusion into a robot there is the possibility of the colored light color breaking.
How about instead of using the flag we just all wrap out robots in color saran wrap. there! problem sovled!
If you really don’t like the thread this much and with all the threads on here, why don’t you all start emailing FIRST and tell them to change it. I mean after all you are the ones that play the game, not FIRST.
-John
Our robot still has one of those lights we had around the shop. Old habits die hard
I vote to go back to the LED’s. I think in the past we just had the wrong LED’s
These are the ones to go with
http://www.swps.com/led-x-exterior-lights.html
These are the new LED’s Police agency’s are starting to use.
SUPER BRIGHT, Alot of agencies around me use them and brag you can see them a mile away.
Kinda of expensive, but have dropped alot since they were mass produced about 3 years ago.
Here is a video to show you how bright they are
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3FcTKlcfxA&mode=related&search=
[edit] just noticed these are the self contained ones, they also have wired ones[/edit]
Like I said in the other flag thread (man there are too many of them), use red and blue cold cathode tubes that flash in patterns. As far as keeping them safe, don’t ask me, let that be up to the teams.