Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)

[Siri]

Never did I refer to the quality of different programs at small versus large schools, I was instead referring to how at smaller schools (which includes both small state schools and large schools that have split off departments that rarely interact), it’s much easier to get help when you need it and talk to others, rather than just getting by without truly understanding the classes.

Thank you for clarifying; this makes a lot more sense. However, it’s still a generalization. I haven’t found this problem at all in my large state school. Disclaimer: I am in the university’s honors college. While this is quite small (<2%) and ranked highly, it is not a separate educational entity. I take classes with everyone else, though it does help open a lot of the ever-numerous doors at such a large university. (Also, scholarships–did I mention this is basically free? there’s something my RPI cohorts would love to say.)

I go to a public university with 39,000 undergrads. 8,600 of us are engineering students, and 814 are in mechanical engineering with me. The largest class I’ve ever had to take was ~40 students. (I’ve taken a few lectures deliberately.) This less than a third of what most of my friends at smaller universities have to take. Most of my professors have contacted me personally for other opportunities, including every single one I made an effort to get to know (which is quite easy and which I often do). They’ve also worked with me to facilitate my many academic goals, including a double major and 6 minors/certificates across both engineering and political science. Many of these opportunities, support mechanisms and resources simply aren’t available at smaller universities. I’ve never gotten “lost” or felt a lack of rigor here.

As to retention via practical experience, I agree this is crucial. Design is integrated into many classes, and I’ve had almost as many design courses as primarily theoretical ones. I’ve also had constant and countless extra opportunities since first semester freshman year. Of the several I’ve taken, all have been incredible. Most recently, I worked in Kenya this summer and am now publishing at least two peer-reviewed articles on the work. In contrast, my friends at smaller universities often lament at the scarcity of even local opportunities. This doesn’t even consider my intriguing political science research, in addition to training at the arguably the top AFROTC detachment* in the country. This thread isn’t about other disciplines, but excellence across them is another benefit to good larger universities to those interested.

*The military training has made me less familiar with co-ops and post-graduation job offers, but almost all of my graduating friends have jobs or graduate schools lined up. Penn State constantly tops the charts in job recruitment (#1 WSJ 2010) and career services (#3 Princeton Review 2011), in addition to excelling international rankings (94 QS, 51 Times).

[RoboMom]

Related story in the Wall Street Journal

Generation Jobless: Students Pick Easier Majors Despite Less Pay

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203733504577026212798573518.html?

[theprgramerdude]

Thank you for clarifying; this makes a lot more sense. However, it’s still a generalization. I haven’t found this problem at all in my large state school. Disclaimer: I am in the university’s honors college. While this is quite small (<2%) and ranked highly, it is not a separate educational entity. I take classes with everyone else, though it does help open a lot of the ever-numerous doors at such a large university. (Also, scholarships–did I mention this is basically free? there’s something my RPI cohorts would love to say.)

While I’m sure that you yourself are quite an outstanding student (especially given what you’ve said), I was making generalizations also because this is a statistical phenomena, and isn’t related to any few people. Studies have shown that,

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/01/26/what-does-an-ivy-league-degree-get-you/

Specifically, this small text:

Studies comparing the lifetime earnings of Ivy Leaguers versus talented graduates of less prestigious universities say it is inconclusive whether an Ivy League degree offers a higher rate of return.
=> assuming Ivy’s are pretty small, yet the quality is high, =>
(I’m aware it’s not directly relatable to the main topic, It’s about the next part) that great students (There are probably quite a few who are in/have been attracted to FIRST, and are thus on CD) generally do well wherever they go, be that big, small, or whatever other options there are. Statistically speaking, the issue is with up to half of the other 99% of your class that might end up dropping school/switching majors because they either just can’t handle the work or hate what they’re doing (some observations from yourself would be great on the matter concerning the entire student body).

That’s an interesting article, RoboMom. It seems to show that it might be just as much of a strange psychological issue as it is a course material issue, given that students across the board appear to be dropping just because they don’t want to really do all the work. However, based on what was said about how GIT remodeled their CS course, instead of making it easier, but making it more interesting and applicable to the student’s futures, I think that’s probably the best way to move forward while trying to see what sticks and keeps students in these programs. Ex. There’s no use forcing CS majors to go through statics if they’re going to like to work on databases, etc. or as the article put it, making architects learn the computing theory.

[JamesBrown]

(Also, scholarships–did I mention this is basically free? there’s something my RPI cohorts would love to say.)

). Yes, free would have been nice, then again if I went to school for free I wouldn’t have the joy of paying back loans now. If you ever feel that your missing out on paying loans let me know, I’d be happy to share mine.

They’ve also worked with me to facilitate my many academic goals, including a double major and 6 minors/certificates across both engineering and political science. Many of these opportunities, support mechanisms and resources simply aren’t available at smaller universities. I’ve never gotten “lost” or felt a lack of rigor here.

It is almost impossible to compare small schools and big schools. I am almost certain (though I have no data to back it up) that on a whole a school like RPI has a higher percentage of undergrads doing research and has more resources per student to provide. This is simply because RPI doesn’t accept the same number of students as a big school like Penn State. By SAT score (a terrible way to characterize students, but the best I can easily find) the top 75% of students at RPI score about the same as the top 25% at Penn State. These two groups are probably academically comparable and I think that if you were to compare the educational and professional opportunities presented to these two groups you would see a lot of simmilarities. The whole of Penn State with 40,000 students is obviously not comparable to RPI, comparing Penn State’s Science and Engineering departments to RPI would be a much more apt comparison.

As far as interdisiplinary opportunities not being available at smaller private schools, just as unfair as it is to group all Big Schools into the party and skate by mentality it is also unfair to group all small school engineering programs into one category, the people at CMU, Stanford, Dartmouth and any number of other schools with top tier humanities and engineering programs would have something to say about it. I agree that big schools offer more opportunity outside of Engineering, however if you aren’t pretty much convinced you want to be an engineer you don’t go to a school like RPI. Even my humanities at RPI were focused on things like Engineering Ethics, Sustainable Development and Cognitive Science. It is a specialty school, and as the campus has seen with recent attempts to diversify, the Alumni don’t want to see it as anything other than a Science and Engineering school.

*The military training has made me less familiar with co-ops and post-graduation job offers, but almost all of my graduating friends have jobs or graduate schools lined up. Penn State constantly tops the charts in job recruitment (#1 WSJ 2010) and career services (#3 Princeton Review 2011), in addition to excelling international rankings (94 QS, 51 Times).

Those studies are always very subjective there isn’t any good way to track job placement and success of students.

[JamesBrown]

Glad to hear this is catching on. Curious to hear your feedback on what the impact would be if the traditional lecture were removed and replaced with these video resources.

I would personally hate it and I think that it would hurt student retention severly. There is something to be said for being in lecture and recitation and being able to ask and answer questions. I think that videos are very useful to fill in the blanks that you discover as you get into home work and test prep but I definitely don’t think they are a viable replacment for the live lecture.

I’ve had the good fortune to have a complex engineering job which over the past couple decades has leveraged the vast majority of my college coursework in some form or fashion. I am thus painfully aware of the distinction between abstract theory and the practical implementation of theory. After mentoring numerous young engineers fresh from college, I’ve realized that this less than smooth transition was not unique nor has the problem gotten much better over time. Hopefully other engineering jobs don’t experience this but it sure would be nice not to have to teach each and every new engineer what their coursework really meant when applied to this particular domain.

There is certainly a learning curve in industry for new engineers. However I think it varies greatly depending on the engineer’s background. I came in and withi the first couple of weeks was working on projects on my own, I credit this to the faact that in school I was able to get practical experience in class, in the research positions I had and through internships. I know other engineers who after a couple of months are still only doing support work for their supervisors.

[Laaba_80]

Never did I refer to the quality of different programs at small versus large schools, I was instead referring to how at smaller schools (which includes both small state schools and large schools that have split off departments that rarely interact), it’s much easier to get help when you need it and talk to others, rather than just getting by without truly understanding the classes.

I go to the University of Wisconsin, which has an enrollment of 42,000 and I have never once felt that it was difficult to get additional help. For all the gen ed classed (basic chem, physics, math) office hours for all TAs in the course are open to any student. They also have various tutoring programs, and free tutoring for math at the dining halls twice a week.

It is also very easy to get help from your peers, your lectures are ~300 students, thats 300 people you can form study groups with, etc. Each gen ed class also has discussion sections 1-3 times a week, with ~20 students with a TA. These are a very relaxed feeling, where you can ask any question.

I have never understood why so many people seem to be dead set against large schools.

[theprgramerdude]

I go to the University of Wisconsin, which has an enrollment of 42,000 and I have never once felt that it was difficult to get additional help. For all the gen ed classed (basic chem, physics, math) office hours for all TAs in the course are open to any student. They also have various tutoring programs, and free tutoring for math at the dining halls twice a week.

It is also very easy to get help from your peers, your lectures are ~300 students, thats 300 people you can form study groups with, etc. Each gen ed class also has discussion sections 1-3 times a week, with ~20 students with a TA. These are a very relaxed feeling, where you can ask any question.

I have never understood why so many people seem to be dead set against large schools.

People don’t pay to go to school so they can learn from their peers ( I hope, there are better things money can be spent on if that’s the case); they pay to go there to learn primarily from the professors, and their work. Conferences led by TA’s definitely help, though.

[Siri]

It is almost impossible to compare small schools and big schools. I am almost certain (though I have no data to back it up) that on a whole a school like RPI has a higher percentage of undergrads doing research and has more resources per student to provide. This is simply because RPI doesn’t accept the same number of students as a big school like Penn State. By SAT score (a terrible way to characterize students, but the best I can easily find) the top 75% of students at RPI score about the same as the top 25% at Penn State. These two groups are probably academically comparable and I think that if you were to compare the educational and professional opportunities presented to these two groups you would see a lot of simmilarities. The whole of Penn State with 40,000 students is obviously not comparable to RPI, comparing Penn State’s Science and Engineering departments to RPI would be a much more apt comparison.

I think we–possibly all three of us–are actually saying exactly the same thing. I’m not sure if this was intentional or not, but I admit I didn’t notice it. In essence, saying that “it’s much easier for you to get help when you need it and talk to others” at a small school (you didn’t say this) ignores who the “you” is. That’s what I was trying to point out, maybe I didn’t do a very good job:

If “you” are one of the top 75% RPI, SATs or top 25% Penn State SATs, or the top 90% of Penn State-Honors College SATs* (all of which are the same number), you’re going to see very similar resources, support, training, graduation rates–most everything–at most of the good universities for your program. The amount of effort this takes “you” will not be strongly correlated to the size of the university, how much you pay, or what you mascot is.

Now, if “you” are not one of those people, “you” aren’t likely to end up at the honors college or RPI. “You” are statistically more likely end up at a large state school or something similar. “You” may well feel you have less support, access, opportunities, or whatever it is. This is not entirely the school’s fault: those opportunities are out there, advertised, sometimes even pushed on you. They may even be more numerous at the typical large university. (Inconclusive; I have no good way to quantify this.) Yes, “you” may end up feeling like a number, but much of this is student complacency in ignoring these resources. Such complacency would likely have a similar effect at RPI (in fact, I’ve seen this), but it has fewer students there who are prone to this.

In summary, the statistics on this issue (or any issue) should not be taken out of context. “You”, as far as the statistics I have seen, are not really more likely to do poorly, drop out, or switch majors at a large school than a small school, or vice versa for that matter. “You” won’t even necessarily have a more difficulty accessing resources at a large school. I argue this is not a case of a few, but a trend of the many. Schools’ resources differ, their curricula differ. But in the end they’re just that: different. High dropout rates correlating to certain aspects does not indicate a causation between the characterized systems and the rates.

*I agree, SAT scores are really not a very good way to measure this. Insert some non-existent perfect measure of intelligence here.

EDIT: To clarify on the topic of class sizes, I think I’ve had 2 courses in which grad students did part of the teaching. One was absolutely outstanding–one of the best teachers I’ve ever had–and I took him deliberately. The other was for a lecture class that I took because I wanted to be able to leave early for robotics (this course also went very well). All of the rest of my classes have been taught by completely professors. Almost all of them have been outstanding teachers as well as exceptionally gifted engineers/scientists/whathaveyou. As for being irrelevant to intro classes, I have friends that got into those groundbreaking labs as freshmen–first semester freshmen. Granted, they weren’t doing anything profound, but they were there–and they still are. Only now they’re publishing, writing theses, speaking at conferences.

[Laaba_80]

People don’t pay to go to school so they can learn from their peers ( I hope, there are better things money can be spent on if that’s the case); they pay to go there to learn primarily from the professors, and their work. Conferences led by TA’s definitely help, though.

And the big schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. My current physics professors work at CERN, when one prof is lecturing for the month, the other is in Switzerland. I have also had multiple professors that have written the textbooks for their subjects.
That said, their work is highly irrelevant towards students studying intro level classes. My physics professors have some interesting stories that they tell on occasion, but they have no affect on me learning physics. It really doesnt matter if a university physics professor, or a high school physics teacher teaches me about kinematic equations, I will learn it either way.

Just because the school is big, doesnt mean you cant talk to your professors. They will answer questions that students have during lecture, and they also have scheduled office hours. If their office hours dont fit someones schedule, they can email the professor and set up a time to meet.

[theprgramerdude]

And the big schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. My current physics professors work at CERN, when one prof is lecturing for the month, the other is in Switzerland. I have also had multiple professors that have written the textbooks for their subjects.
That said, their work is highly irrelevant towards students studying intro level classes. My physics professors have some interesting stories that they tell on occasion, but they have no affect on me learning physics. It really doesnt matter if a university physics professor, or a high school physics teacher teaches me about kinematic equations, I will learn it either way.

Just because the school is big, doesnt mean you cant talk to your professors. They will answer questions that students have during lecture, and they also have scheduled office hours. If their office hours dont fit someones schedule, they can email the professor and set up a time to meet.

And the small schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. It just so happens that, statistically speaking, it’s much easier to contact a professor who’s class you’re taking, or other professors to get in on their research, when you’re one of a few, rather than one of many, which is the case at smaller schools.

[Siri]

And the small schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. It just so happens that, statistically speaking, it’s much easier to contact a professor who’s class you’re taking, or other professors to get in on their research, when you’re one of a few, rather than one of many, which is the case at smaller schools.

But again this misses the other side of the equation. Is it easier to talk to a given professor when you’re in a small class and/or when you’re competing with fewer people? Sure. But bigger universities also have more professors doing more research, usually with more diversity, possibly with more extensive facilities.

This corresponds to more opportunities, though the ratio varies by school (for both small and large, of course). I’ve gotten in good contact with many of my professors. Some have become close research/professional partners, a few are friends. I know several lab directors by their first names. The alumni network is huge (record-holding) and also great for these opportunities.

I’ve built this up over the years, of course, but had a strong base by late freshman and sophomore year. I’ve never had a professor that I wanted to correspond with and couldn’t. I’ve never felt limited by the school size, and am perennially impressed by the quantity and quality of opportunities and people it brings together. Do 90% of Penn Staters do this? No, but thousands do. I’m below average in this list in some ways (largely because of my commitment to ROTC). These systems understandably have a huge impact on retention for those with the interest.

How many students at RPI engage in similar things? (Sorry, looking for an all-encompassing term.) How do the opportunities compare? I honestly don’t know. Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Katie_UPS]

People don’t pay to go to school so they can learn from their peers ( I hope, there are better things money can be spent on if that’s the case)

EDIT: I realized this may come off as rude… trying to adjust.

Yes, you like your small school. Some of us like larger schools. Some of us learn better when working with our peers. I enjoy my 400 student chemistry lecture. Some of us like the large amount of opportunities presented by a larger school. Some people like the intimacy of a smaller school.

Not everyone is just like you. Just because a small school is the right fit for you, doesn’t mean its the right fit for everyone. I love my large school. I would most likely be miserable at a small school. You like your small school. You probably would not be happy a big school. People are different. Understand that one size does not fit all.

[Ian_Curtis]

But again this misses the other side of the equation. Is it easier to talk to a given professor when you’re in a small class and/or when you’re competing with fewer people? Sure. But bigger universities also have more professors doing more research, usually with more diversity, possibly with more extensive facilities.

This corresponds to more opportunities, though the ratio varies by school (for both small and large, of course). I’ve gotten in good contact with many of my professors. Some have become close research/professional partners, a few are friends. I know several lab directors by their first names. The alumni network is huge (record-holding) and also great for these opportunities.

How many students at RPI engage in similar things? (Sorry, looking for an all-encompassing term.) How do the opportunities compare? I honestly don’t know. Can anyone shed some light on this?

I can’t speak for other departments, but in the aero department our flow control research center is top notch. They push undergraduate research pretty hard, I know a couple of people have done research in the physics department or with the CivEs (they have a huge soil centrifuge somewhere). I’ve never had a problem getting in contact with professors, just some of them are so busy researching you’ve got to bug them a couple of times to actually finish letters of recommendation. Another pretty neat place is our combustion lab, where there have been a couple of undergrad rocket engine firings, and a whole ton of ignition research.

Like I said earlier, I got my job at Boeing because of RPI’s alumni, and UTC subsidiaries and GE are always here hiring people. My friends who have graduated are working on projects like the 787,F135, Purepower Geared Turbofan, Hummingbird UAV, and theFalcon 9… so at least our recent alumni work on neat things!

That said, there are a million ways to success… I firmly believe that successful people will be successful regardless of where they go to school.

[quote=Katie_UPS]I enjoy my 400 student chemistry lecture./QUOTE
Why? Not a dig, genuinely curious why you’d prefer 400 kids in a class vs. 40 or so where you might get a chance to ask a question if you were confused.[/quote]

[Katie_UPS]

Not a dig, genuinely curious why you’d prefer 400 kids in a class vs. 40 or so where you might get a chance to ask a question if you were confused.

Its part of how my teacher structures the class that makes me like it, but I can’t fully explain. What I can explain though, is that there is something comforting knowing that there are other people taking this class with me (versus my four person higher level physics class in high school). If I need help, I can easily find another student in my class, who likely thinks similarly to me and can explain whatever it is I don’t understand. There are enough of us around that someone probably understands it.

Additionally, I can ask questions if I’m confused. There are tricks (ie sitting in the front of the classroom) that allow for you to get the small school feel in a big school setting.

[Dave_Campbell]

What I am seeing from several of the previous posts is a common theme - All of you are passionate. Passionate about your education - big school, small school, peer groups and most importantly your education. This is the key ingredient to recruit and retain students in any educational career field. Passion is what is missing in most high school and middle school classrooms where the students lose interest. Passion fuels curiosity which leads to engagement which leads to learning and retention.
Ask any friend if they have a favorite music group. Ask them if they know the lyrics to their favorite songs from that group. The answer is going to be yes. They are likely passionate about that group and music.
Develop passion for content in schools, both teacher and student, and the dropout rates of challenging courses will drop.

[ebarker]

That said, there are a million ways to success… I firmly believe that successful people will be successful regardless of where they go to school.

Absolutely

[Brandon_Holley]

Its part of how my teacher structures the class that makes me like it, but I can’t fully explain. What I can explain though, is that there is something comforting knowing that there are other people taking this class with me (versus my four person higher level physics class in high school). If I need help, I can easily find another student in my class, who likely thinks similarly to me and can explain whatever it is I don’t understand. There are enough of us around that someone probably understands it.

Additionally, I can ask questions if I’m confused. There are tricks (ie sitting in the front of the classroom) that allow for you to get the small school feel in a big school setting.

Katie I totally agree with you on the point that everyone has their own tastes. Everyone learns differently and in their own way. Part of the college experience is really understanding yourself and how you can become the best student you can be.

When I reread Alex’s statement that you quoted above, I think you may be jumping to a conclusion slightly. When I read what he says that “people don’t pay to go to a school so they can learn from their peers” I think he’s generally correct. People attend college expecting to learn from intelligent professors. While PLENTY of learning occurs from your peers, the general idea I think is that someone is there to help if you get REALLY stuck and your peers can’t help. I think your last paragraph above kind of points to this. You go to class, sit up front so you can hear and be seen. You pay attention so that if you do get confused you can ask the professor questions, not your fellow classmates (even though they may be able to help you get the answer).

-Brando

[theprgramerdude]

Yes, you like your small school. Some of us like larger schools. Some of us learn better when working with our peers. I enjoy my 400 student chemistry lecture. Some of us like the large amount of opportunities presented by a larger school. Some people like the intimacy of a smaller school.

You’re right, I do like my small school. It’s quite nice, and although I wouldn’t give it up for anything, I know that others do function better at larger schools. What I’ve been trying to do is figure out whether there’s any real difference in the rates for changing majors between the smaller schools and larger schools, and if so, whether that’s attributable to size.

There could be countless other factors messing with the results; one person, for example, mentioned that certain schools are specifically catered to only special programs. WPI and RPI both are great engineering schools, while not nearly as big in the other fields, and the students entering there know they’re great engineering schools. On the other hand, students at large schools have a much easier time switching to different programs because of the available options and such.

[JamesBrown]

I have also had multiple professors that have written the textbooks for their subjects.

There is nothing worse than taking a class with a professor that teaches from a book he wrote. You just never get a different explanation, the way it is taught in class is the way it is spelled out in the book. This happened to me when I took Engineering Probability, the professor was without a doubt one of the smartest men I have ever met, however he was not a good teacher and his book was difficult to follow.

[Brandon_Holley]

There is nothing worse than taking a class with a professor that teaches from a book he wrote. You just never get a different explanation, the way it is taught in class is the way it is spelled out in the book. This happened to me when I took Engineering Probability, the professor was without a doubt one of the smartest men I have ever met, however he was not a good teacher and his book was difficult to follow.

Same thing for me with my Circuits professor. Great guy, decent teacher, terrible terrible book.

-Brando