Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)

FIRST General Forum
#76

I think we–possibly all three of us–are actually saying exactly the same thing. I’m not sure if this was intentional or not, but I admit I didn’t notice it. In essence, saying that “it’s much easier for you to get help when you need it and talk to others” at a small school (you didn’t say this) ignores who the “you” is. That’s what I was trying to point out, maybe I didn’t do a very good job:

If “you” are one of the top 75% RPI, SATs or top 25% Penn State SATs, or the top 90% of Penn State-Honors College SATs* (all of which are the same number), you’re going to see very similar resources, support, training, graduation rates–most everything–at most of the good universities for your program. The amount of effort this takes “you” will not be strongly correlated to the size of the university, how much you pay, or what you mascot is.

Now, if “you” are not one of those people, “you” aren’t likely to end up at the honors college or RPI. “You” are statistically more likely end up at a large state school or something similar. “You” may well feel you have less support, access, opportunities, or whatever it is. This is not entirely the school’s fault: those opportunities are out there, advertised, sometimes even pushed on you. They may even be more numerous at the typical large university. (Inconclusive; I have no good way to quantify this.) Yes, “you” may end up feeling like a number, but much of this is student complacency in ignoring these resources. Such complacency would likely have a similar effect at RPI (in fact, I’ve seen this), but it has fewer students there who are prone to this.

In summary, the statistics on this issue (or any issue) should not be taken out of context. “You”, as far as the statistics I have seen, are not really more likely to do poorly, drop out, or switch majors at a large school than a small school, or vice versa for that matter. “You” won’t even necessarily have a more difficulty accessing resources at a large school. I argue this is not a case of a few, but a trend of the many. Schools’ resources differ, their curricula differ. But in the end they’re just that: different. High dropout rates correlating to certain aspects does not indicate a causation between the characterized systems and the rates.

*I agree, SAT scores are really not a very good way to measure this. Insert some non-existent perfect measure of intelligence here.

EDIT: To clarify on the topic of class sizes, I think I’ve had 2 courses in which grad students did part of the teaching. One was absolutely outstanding–one of the best teachers I’ve ever had–and I took him deliberately. The other was for a lecture class that I took because I wanted to be able to leave early for robotics (this course also went very well). All of the rest of my classes have been taught by completely professors. Almost all of them have been outstanding teachers as well as exceptionally gifted engineers/scientists/whathaveyou. As for being irrelevant to intro classes, I have friends that got into those groundbreaking labs as freshmen–first semester freshmen. Granted, they weren’t doing anything profound, but they were there–and they still are. Only now they’re publishing, writing theses, speaking at conferences.

#77

And the big schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. My current physics professors work at CERN, when one prof is lecturing for the month, the other is in Switzerland. I have also had multiple professors that have written the textbooks for their subjects.
That said, their work is highly irrelevant towards students studying intro level classes. My physics professors have some interesting stories that they tell on occasion, but they have no affect on me learning physics. It really doesnt matter if a university physics professor, or a high school physics teacher teaches me about kinematic equations, I will learn it either way.

Just because the school is big, doesnt mean you cant talk to your professors. They will answer questions that students have during lecture, and they also have scheduled office hours. If their office hours dont fit someones schedule, they can email the professor and set up a time to meet.

#78

And the small schools generally have professors doing ground breaking research. It just so happens that, statistically speaking, it’s much easier to contact a professor who’s class you’re taking, or other professors to get in on their research, when you’re one of a few, rather than one of many, which is the case at smaller schools.

#79

But again this misses the other side of the equation. Is it easier to talk to a given professor when you’re in a small class and/or when you’re competing with fewer people? Sure. But bigger universities also have more professors doing more research, usually with more diversity, possibly with more extensive facilities.

This corresponds to more opportunities, though the ratio varies by school (for both small and large, of course). I’ve gotten in good contact with many of my professors. Some have become close research/professional partners, a few are friends. I know several lab directors by their first names. The alumni network is huge (record-holding) and also great for these opportunities.

I’ve built this up over the years, of course, but had a strong base by late freshman and sophomore year. I’ve never had a professor that I wanted to correspond with and couldn’t. I’ve never felt limited by the school size, and am perennially impressed by the quantity and quality of opportunities and people it brings together. Do 90% of Penn Staters do this? No, but thousands do. I’m below average in this list in some ways (largely because of my commitment to ROTC). These systems understandably have a huge impact on retention for those with the interest.

How many students at RPI engage in similar things? (Sorry, looking for an all-encompassing term.) How do the opportunities compare? I honestly don’t know. Can anyone shed some light on this?

#80

EDIT: I realized this may come off as rude… trying to adjust.

Yes, you like your small school. Some of us like larger schools. Some of us learn better when working with our peers. I enjoy my 400 student chemistry lecture. Some of us like the large amount of opportunities presented by a larger school. Some people like the intimacy of a smaller school.

Not everyone is just like you. Just because a small school is the right fit for you, doesn’t mean its the right fit for everyone. I love my large school. I would most likely be miserable at a small school. You like your small school. You probably would not be happy a big school. People are different. Understand that one size does not fit all.

#81

I can’t speak for other departments, but in the aero department our flow control research center is top notch. They push undergraduate research pretty hard, I know a couple of people have done research in the physics department or with the CivEs (they have a huge soil centrifuge somewhere). I’ve never had a problem getting in contact with professors, just some of them are so busy researching you’ve got to bug them a couple of times to actually finish letters of recommendation. :wink: Another pretty neat place is our combustion lab, where there have been a couple of undergrad rocket engine firings, and a whole ton of ignition research.

Like I said earlier, I got my job at Boeing because of RPI’s alumni, and UTC subsidiaries and GE are always here hiring people. My friends who have graduated are working on projects like the 787,F135, Purepower Geared Turbofan, Hummingbird UAV, and theFalcon 9… so at least our recent alumni work on neat things!

That said, there are a million ways to success… I firmly believe that successful people will be successful regardless of where they go to school.

[quote=Katie_UPS]I enjoy my 400 student chemistry lecture./QUOTE
Why? Not a dig, genuinely curious why you’d prefer 400 kids in a class vs. 40 or so where you might get a chance to ask a question if you were confused.[/quote]

#82

Its part of how my teacher structures the class that makes me like it, but I can’t fully explain. What I can explain though, is that there is something comforting knowing that there are other people taking this class with me (versus my four person higher level physics class in high school). If I need help, I can easily find another student in my class, who likely thinks similarly to me and can explain whatever it is I don’t understand. There are enough of us around that someone probably understands it.

Additionally, I can ask questions if I’m confused. There are tricks (ie sitting in the front of the classroom) that allow for you to get the small school feel in a big school setting.

#83

What I am seeing from several of the previous posts is a common theme - All of you are passionate. Passionate about your education - big school, small school, peer groups and most importantly your education. This is the key ingredient to recruit and retain students in any educational career field. Passion is what is missing in most high school and middle school classrooms where the students lose interest. Passion fuels curiosity which leads to engagement which leads to learning and retention.
Ask any friend if they have a favorite music group. Ask them if they know the lyrics to their favorite songs from that group. The answer is going to be yes. They are likely passionate about that group and music.
Develop passion for content in schools, both teacher and student, and the dropout rates of challenging courses will drop.

#84

Absolutely

#85

Katie I totally agree with you on the point that everyone has their own tastes. Everyone learns differently and in their own way. Part of the college experience is really understanding yourself and how you can become the best student you can be.

When I reread Alex’s statement that you quoted above, I think you may be jumping to a conclusion slightly. When I read what he says that “people don’t pay to go to a school so they can learn from their peers” I think he’s generally correct. People attend college expecting to learn from intelligent professors. While PLENTY of learning occurs from your peers, the general idea I think is that someone is there to help if you get REALLY stuck and your peers can’t help. I think your last paragraph above kind of points to this. You go to class, sit up front so you can hear and be seen. You pay attention so that if you do get confused you can ask the professor questions, not your fellow classmates (even though they may be able to help you get the answer).

-Brando

#86

You’re right, I do like my small school. It’s quite nice, and although I wouldn’t give it up for anything, I know that others do function better at larger schools. What I’ve been trying to do is figure out whether there’s any real difference in the rates for changing majors between the smaller schools and larger schools, and if so, whether that’s attributable to size.

There could be countless other factors messing with the results; one person, for example, mentioned that certain schools are specifically catered to only special programs. WPI and RPI both are great engineering schools, while not nearly as big in the other fields, and the students entering there know they’re great engineering schools. On the other hand, students at large schools have a much easier time switching to different programs because of the available options and such.

#87

There is nothing worse than taking a class with a professor that teaches from a book he wrote. You just never get a different explanation, the way it is taught in class is the way it is spelled out in the book. This happened to me when I took Engineering Probability, the professor was without a doubt one of the smartest men I have ever met, however he was not a good teacher and his book was difficult to follow.

#88

Same thing for me with my Circuits professor. Great guy, decent teacher, terrible terrible book.

-Brando

#89

What is cross-discipline education like at polytechs, if this is generalizable at all? I ask because Penn State has 45 credits of required “general education”. Even the intro courses can be excellent: small classes, great teachers, even full profs, research opportunities. This is part of what convinced me to pick up a double major in international politics here.

#90

Could you be a bit more specific in what you’re referring to with cross-disicpline? Like, what’s required, or what you can do, or what? Also, what exactly are the general education classes you’re talking about?

#91

Those pesky English, humanities, and social science classes that engineering freshmen and sophomores (and, depending on your school, the odd junior or senior) have to take or risk being held back until you take them.

At my school, that’s a combined 21 credits, plus 2 PE credits, plus 4 credits taken after sophomore year.

#92

Well, what’s required first, but also what you can do. For instance, Penn State requires an general writing (probably still the best course of my college career–amazing professor), public speaking, technical writing (another great course), physical education, roughly at least two courses each in humanities and social sciences (all amazing for me), a US cultures course, an international cultures course, a course that applies writing across the curriculum, and a few others I’m missing. Basically, it exposes you to the other disciplines–very well if you’re interested. Of course, some people who aren’t interested use it to take film watching and ballroom dance (though these are also both very good), but if you’re willing to explore even the intro courses can be absolutely fantastic. We’re required to have 45 total, though some are worked into your major. I know different universities count credits differently, so for perspective, I need 131 total to graduate in M E.

I’ve seen some people switch majors–both in an out of technical fields–because they just honestly loved what they did in these courses. They didn’t give up on anything; they just realized they liked something else more. (I’m not implying this is why everyone switches, but I have seen a good number just in my limited exposure thus far.) Do places RPI or other small schools offer similar opportunities? Do people take them, given what we were discussing before about the types of people each school tends to attract?

#93

Yes, but not to that extent. We are required to take 22 Humanities and Social Sciences credits, 2 of which are Professional Development II (classes designed to prepare you for working an engineering job), and depending on your major you will have a certain number of free electives where you can take whatever class you want. AeroE has 12 credits of free elective, I believe it varies by major, and is eliminated if you double/dual major. In addition, nothing stops you from going above and beyond, I’ll graduate with ~140 credits while only 128 are required.

We are required to take at least 2 Humanities and at least 2 Social Sciences (and to hit 22 you’ve got to take a third in one of the two). In my case I took an intro level class called Science, Technology and Society taught by RPI’s Science and Technology Studies department, which is apparently a relatively unique major. I thought it was a total waste of my time, but know people that enjoyed the class.

I’ve taken multiple economics classes, and LOVED them. Mostly with the same professor who is a triple threat. He really knows his stuff, he does great research, and has multiple teaching awards. As part of a class called Structure of Industry I had to write a 25 pager about the business strategy of IBM when they rolled out their System/360, and I really had no interest in the subject. Turns out it was a fascinating subject, I now know more than anyone should know about mainframe computing in the 1960s, and the same business practices have lots of applications to other businesses. I’m taking RPI’s public speaking class next semester (which is not required), but I’ve only heard very good things about it.

There are also some fairly esoteric classes, last spring their was a class called “Inflatable Public Sculpture” that one of my friends took. It was exactly what it sounded like, and some really neat inflatable sculptures popped up around campus. I don’t know anyone who has switched majors because they really enjoyed an elective though, only people who switched because they couldn’t handle the workload of a technical major.

#94

It is probably worth noting that RPI’s Humanities and Social Sciences do not quite require you to get out of Engineering. My H&SS electives included Intro to Logic, Intermediate Logic, Computability and Logic, and Cognitive Robotics which required a stronger background in programming than almost any of my CS courses.

#95

At WPI, it’s a bit different, primarily due to how the courses work. The school is a quarter system, with 3 courses per quarter here, or an average, recommended load of 6 courses per semester, which makes things go by really fast as courses last two months. I.E. Most undergrad classes here are worth 3 credits; for juniors and seniors that have the background, they could take the graduate courses for no extra cost at around 4-5 credits per class.

The degree requirements for any major are essentially the same, a person has to graduate with 139 (1533?) credits minimum. Of those,
9 are free electives for any major (which again, usually disappear into another major if you double for the sake of graduating earlier than 5-6 years)

18 have to be in the humanities department (art, history, music, philosophy, int. studies, etc.) The final course taken must be a 3000-level seminar or practicum, and 3 of those taken must be in the same field.
Per se, there aren’t any required courses, except for the depth requirement, which means you end up taking a few in the same field to get a firm grasp on the content and communication skills.

6 are required for the social sciences (economics, psychology, gov., etc)

There is a PE requirement of 3 credits, but the classes aren’t even a credit and so they’re just taken in addition to the normal load over a few years.

The last general requirement here is the Interactive Qualifying Project (IQP), which is a 9 credit project during the Junior year that requires students to study some interaction between society and technology.

The last 90 credits are left up to each major; for engineering specifically, it’s generally a situation where 30 credits are “math and basic sciences”, most of the basic calculus/physics/chemistry/comp sci classes are taken in this area as a stepping stone to the 60 credits which are required in the major field. Of those 60, 9 are reserved for the MQP, which is the senior capstone project.

One thing to note is that these are just graduation credits; the only time-based requirement for taking them is that you have to have them all by the time you want your degree (exceptions are the IQP’s/MQP’s/Humanities seminar, those are organized by the professors with their own requirements, so you can’t just go in and do them as a freshman).

As to what was said about the cool classes, those definitely are here, although they tend to exist as the 3000-level, smaller courses that are taken sophomore/junior level. I know an engineering student that, despite failing a few classes here, took seven because he liked them so much, and can still manage to graduate in 4 years.