Will FIRST allow STAGE scoring in AUTO?

In the current rules, STAGE points are counted five seconds after a match ends. This timing means that if a robot scores in the trap or hangs on the chain autonomously, these actions don’t contribute to extra points. However, I believe there’s a possibility that FIRST might revise these rules. Specifically, they could allow robots to score through hanging during the autonomous phase or enable trap points to be scored during both the autonomous and teleoperated stages of the match, with a reset of trap points occurring between these two phases. Such a change could offer up to 15 possible points in each stage.

Given the limit of 11 floor notes available for pickup, we’ll quickly see matches where robots can quickly score all the notes in their wing. After all the wing notes are scored two things could happen: either a high-speed collision at the center line or scoring all four of the central notes. This won’t take long either, as we have already seen the Citrus Circuits team’s capability to perform a 5-note auto.

Therefore, it seems necessary to adjust the rules for the autonomous period. Options include adding more notes to the field to reduce the risk of center-line collisions or allowing teams to score STAGE points without venturing to the center. The key question is whether FIRST will implement changes before the regular season or wait until just before the championships, similar to the “Supercharged Node” situation we’ve seen previously.

The difference here is that in Charged Up, robots were designed to score throughout the match and the state of the game would be irrelevant to that. Here, many robots will likely be designed to climb and score in the TRAP without needing to come back down on their own, since this only needs to happen at the end of the match.

Keep in mind 1678’s autos are always the best of the best each season. I don’t expect most teams to be pulling them off every match in a way that would require FIRST to add more ways to score in auto to avoid exhausting the available points. Even if that was a constant issue, there’s still plenty of match after that for both alliances to play.

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Last year was a special case. FIRST doesn’t usually make such drastic changes to the game, and the only reason they did so last year was scoring was capped. The only thing they might do is increase the number of rings that start off the field in the source.

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I would take a look at the Q and A on this one… This question has been addressed I believe

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I agree that it will be unlikely that matches can exhaust all possible points but I don’t see that as the biggest issue. The biggest issue will be when two teams with autos, like 1678’s current one, where they speed to the center of the field. Then the two bots collide at that high speed. When this happens, who takes the penalty? Should teams let the opposing alliance know what center note they are going for?

This thread covers the issue pretty well.

You should look at the game manual for complete information. There are no penalties assessed for contact in auto unless a robot’s bumpers are completely over the center line. I believe the normal extending into an opponent’s frame isn’t allowed in either auto or teleop.

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Scoring in the TRAP is allowing during auto. See Q1 in the Q&A.

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So based on rule G405

Limited AUTO opponent interaction. In AUTO, a ROBOT whose BUMPERS have completely crossed the CENTER LINE (i.e. to the opposite side of the CENTER LINE from its ROBOT STARTING ZONE) may contact neither an opponent ROBOT nor NOTES staged in the opponent’s WING.

If two robots collided at the center while trying to retrieve a note, there would be no penalty for either team. Yet if a robot somehow damaged the opposing robot with its grabbing mechanism or by making them tip over, it would be up to the ref to decide if that damage could be considered a violation of rule G418.

This isn’t combat robotics. A ROBOT may not damage or functionally impair an opponent ROBOT in either of the following ways:
A. deliberately, as perceived by a REFEREE.
B. regardless of intent, by initiating contact, either directly or transitively via a NOTE CONTROLLED by the ROBOT, inside the vertical projection of an opponent ROBOT’S FRAME PERIMETER.
Damage or functional impairment because of contact with a tipped-over opponent ROBOT, which is not
perceived by a REFEREE to be deliberate, is not a violation of this rule.

I could see a ref determining that a high-speed autonomous grab going wrong and hitting the inside of another robot as a violation of B.

Yes, but there is no benefit to scoring in the trap during autonomous vs. in tele-op.

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to quote someone from last year…
:wink:

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How does your proposal, allowing additional ways to score, impact this scenario?

As I see it, even if additional ways to score in auto were to be added (which I DOUBT) would happen, teams will continue to go for game pieces at field center. Being able to beat your opponents to a fixed number of fixed position game pieces is advantageous because it earns you points AND deprives the opposing alliance of points.

A team wouldn’t decide against doing this in favor of some alternative points, unless they are confident they can’t do it, in which case they shouldn’t be attempting it regardless.

Given some of these replies, this seems like a solution looking for a problem. Could the game have been designed with some modified scoring objectives? Sure. Do I think FIRST will change major objectives of gameplay or rules around scoring? Definitely not.

FIRST already explained in the game manual where they intend to modify scoring later in the season. I’d expect them to do probably do that and nothing else earth shattering.

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I’m not sure we’re actually going to see robots colliding at high speed in this instance. Robots will likely already be decelerating as they want to grab the note and then go back the other direction as quickly as possible. They also won’t want to go fully over the center line as this opens them up to penalties and I don’t think a robot can generally stop within the length of it’s frame perimeter at top speed. I’d still expect to see some collisions, but I doubt they’ll be full speed or even as hard as the collisions last year.

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Eh. I really should stay out of this…

Actually, it’s a big ol’ “It Depends” for two robots colliding in the center. Could be anything from nothing at all clear up to both robots getting red-carded (and being mutually disabled due to damage/entanglement).

I’d personally be more worried about G417, or with an extended intake being damaged (as those aren’t protected by G418).

Generally speaking, when looking at the victim robot:
IF (isdamage == TRUE && isinsideFramePerimeterProjection == TRUE && didopposingrobotcausebymovinginto == TRUE) THEN (issuepenalties) ELSE (donothing). At least for G418B. (Other rules or parts of rules may also apply. For the trio of G417, G418, and G419, only one is used.)

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Just wondering, where exactly in the game manual do they explain where they intend to modify scoring later in the season? Is it the tidbit where rp reqs may increase in district and/or championship events?

Footnote at the bottom of table 6-2.

There’s also an A-stop this year. That’ll definitely help with collisions.

I don’t think any extra addition is necessary, and plus at high-level play if there’s truly extra time left, teams can include stage trap scoring not for extra points, but so endgame is less stressful/they can start climbing later

edit: trap, not stage

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