Winning Defensive Allaince?

Ok it ask come up numerous times that an allinace that sacrifices a member to play defense is basically shooting themsleves in the foot. I pose this to you. I’m willing to bet that the winning allaince will have two offensive robot and a robot that is an AWESOME defender.

If two capable teams say “let us handle the offense, and you cover the other allaince” I would let them. Let me put it this way. If 56 and 71, and I were on the same allaince and 56 and 71 said they wanted me to run defense “WHY WOULDN’T I” I know that they are fully capable to handle things on their own. Take teams 11 and 25 for instance (ok I’m a little biased but these are the only two that fit my point) Teams 11 and 25 are two teams that can push anyone around the field They can still cap if need be but their true strenght lies in their beastly drive train. You pair 56, 71, and 11 or 25 together and you have a championship medal around your neck. Everyone is assuming that one robot can only take on one other robot, But as proven at NJ a good defensive robot can keep all three opponents occupied is they’re good enough.

So keep in mind that in the elims you get to pick your partners. So their defense isn’t going to be some run of the mill defense they’re putting up. It’s going to be a defense that you pick out yourself.

Just something to consider in these next 5 weeks. Let me know what you think.

I’ll take the bait. Right now, I’ll put up my three offensive bots (and I am being biased) 71, 217, and 229 against ANY combination of 2 offense and 1 defense. My three offense will win 90% of the time. Now, if you put up another highly offensive trio (for argument’s sake let’s say 179, 233, and 67) I would say my chances are now 50/50.

The logic is very simple: I can put tetras in three places at the same time where you can only put two. This game is about divide and conquer. I’m not saying that blocking won’t happen, but that third robot must be able to score and it’s primary mission should be scoring.

This is the year of the fingers and not the thumbs (don’t ask because it is a long story, just know that offensive robots are fingers and defensive robots are thumbs)!!

There, are you happy? I took your bait. Let the games begin…

In qualification match #69 at Chesapeake, the Friarbot was used in a primarily defensive fashion. After we capped our opponents’ auto-loader-side goal towards the beginning of that match, the Friarbot successfully defended that goal from being stacked by the previously undefeated 007 robot for most of the rest of the two minutes; when 007 got another tetra from their auto-loader, we stayed right on them and prevented them from capping the middle-auto-loader-side goal until time expired. Meanwhile, our two alliance partners had done well enough offensively that we won the match 38 to 17.

So I essentially agree. I think two offensively-geared robots, plus a robot that can cap but can also play defense really well (aka better than we could), will be a winning combination. It may be a primarily offensive game this year, but defense still plays a role in winning matches.

You say that you can cap in three places where as I can only cap in two…what do you think our third robot is doing? Sitting in the end zone? Sorry if that sounded sarcastic but the whole point of having a third defensive robot is to make sure that the other allaince only has 2 or even one robot capping

I’m just going to agree with Paul for the most part, but both sides have their advantages if used effectively. As I’ve seen both types win and loose depending on the strategies applied.

Defense works really well. Defense doesn’t necassarily mean strong drivetrain. We figured out in the quarterfinals that with out claw we could grab anyones tetra (who had a stick through the tetra) and either steal of push it out of place. Hence we could play defense on two bots instead of one. If you can dislodge their tetra they have to go back and get another one where just pushign them around just well pushes them around. They just go and try again instead of having to go get another tetra.

At UTC team 1071 prevented team 230 from scoreing any points. We stole 2 tetra’s (6 points and those 2 would have been stacked) and we prevented another two with our arm (another 6 points)… Had we played offense, we would have probably still won, even if we had scored just 1 tetra (we average 4-6 tetra’s per match). To be honest, I don’t think team 1071 ramed or bumped team 230 it was strictly the arm working

The alliance with team 1071, 69, 126 won the finals match by 12 points, the amount that was stolen and blocked.

I can see the point about 3 teams scoreing vs 2, but that would be a poorly executed defensive plan. Our team knows what types of robots we can block easily and play defense against and we know our limits which is why the few times 1071 does play defense they are sucessful 9 out of 10 times in preventing a team from scoreing.

You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won’t be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND

I think the effectiveness of defense lies in your strategy. You need a sort of offensive defense. If you can cap an opponents corner goal and keep them from recapping it, you’ve stolen atleast 10 points from them. Possibly 20. If your offensive bots can control their own home row and the center and side goal, you’ve netted yourself a 30 point advantage. That means a little strategy and defense can be equivalent to a robot that can stack 10 tetras.

our winning alliance was 3 cappers. As kevin said, good strategy is important. Strategy helped us a lot versus pusher/defending bots.

A robot that can score a few tetras and then defend those tetras is extreamly valuable. I’ve seen many matches won because one bot scored a line, and then protected it like an irate mother. To me, defense in this game is defending lines, not nessicarly preventing other teams from scoring. While that has it’s place, it seems more productive to either keep your tetras on top, or to breakup opposing lines. As Paul said, a mediocre capper is never going to outscore a good capper flat out, but he can secure a 19 point line and tie up a bot that trys to take it from him. 19 points is a big deal in this game, and I’ll take any alliance member that can reliably score me 19 points on my alliance.

The trick is for that team to strike the right balance between being offensive and defensive. It makes sense to use the first portion of the match to secure at least the home row. Once you’ve decided you’ve got enough tetras up, it’s time to make sure they stay up there. Knowing when to make that switch is difficult, but teams that do that well can be a huge asset.

I think 2 good offensive and one good defensive makes for a reliable allience. 3 offensive bots may post higher scores, but they can’t do it every match. Who’s going to win the championship? I don’t know, but I think that 95 (who happens to be a very defensive bot) has a good shot. But then, I am biased.

Remember- sometimes in FIRST defense really means defense and not just harassing the other bots.

-Andy A.

I would agree with you except for that the layout of this game, there are a possible 6 goals that you could go for at all times and due to that fact, you will always be closer to one than the person is trying to defend you is. Any good capper should be able to cap without much of a problem if they reach the goal first, even with a little resistance. Ill agree with Paul and stick with my 3 offensive robots I am skeptical only because I have not seen it done yet, not seen a successful 2 offensive 1 defensive alliance in the elims win yet personally.

A few more clarifications:

1. I didn’t say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can’t score, they already have an advantage.

2. No way can even the best defensive bot shut down two good offensive robots in eliminations. The scoring possibilities are too great and the advantage goes to the offensive robot. Think of it this way: a two on one in soccer (one goal) is very hard to stop. What if both offensive players had a ball and there were 5 other goals to score into? C’mon, there is no way the best defensive bot will stop two good scorers.

-Paul

alright I’ll bite Paul. I disagree I think you can have 2 offense 1 defense alliance work well in the eliminations…I have seen defensive robots shut more than one offensive team at a time. Also in a elimination round(s) I watched this exact scenario where three offensive teams were defeated handily by two offensive bots and one defensive. The key was the defensive bot knew when it would and would not get a penalty…moreover they did not have a high torque ability just the ability to cause a nuisance whenever the other alliance went to cap.

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You’ve effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?

I personally don’t think the best defense will be played with a strong slow drive base. It will require a good arm that can get in the way of caps and get there fast. Shoving bots in goals only works on some designs. But swatting caps or covering goals works all the time. I haven’t seen this “smart” defense played yet.

This is a movie somebody team 195 had posted here in another post. This is the 2nd finals match of UTC where teams 69, 126, and 1071 decided it would be easier to make the match 2 vs 2.

I will be honest 1071 is in no way a “defensive” team. we only played defense in 4 or 5 matches all weekend, includeing Thursday’s practice rounds. I think it’s important that all teams need to be fast cappers, but having a team that can play defense (not pushing and ramming) but real defense is probably going to be the key to the winning alliances at nationals at some point during the elminiation rounds.

I must admit that is very GREAT move by 1071, but I look at it this way…

1071 spent most of the match (if not ALL of the match) defending against 230, which is a great strategy because of how effecitvely they capped. But if all you are going to do is block against one robot, why even bother trying to knock tetras loose if you have a strong drivetrain. The move was amazing by 1071 but it also spent time etc to do it. A robot that could simply keep a robot from scoring at ground level could defend easily against them and also another bot that entered that zone, which did occur a couple times in that match. That is just the way I feel…

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper.

Our 3rd alliance member at Detroit (team 301) capped 5 or 6 a match the entire elimination rounds.

I am done debating (not because I don’t think it’s fun, but because I have to get some real work done) this issue and I will see you all at The Championship. I will give an update from The MidWest Regional on how defensive strategies worked.

-Paul

Well thats just the way you need to play defense. Our alliance gave us the option to play offense if we choose to. We just felt 69 and 126 could out score any two robots, teams 20 and 173 were awsome teams but the fact of the matter is 69 and 126 outsocred them by 14 points.

Had 1071 not hit the center goal with the tetra and have it fall off, we would have scored 3pts on that goal while 230 was still loading in the human zone.

If 1071 didn’t play defense it is safe to say 1071 would have given a MINIMUM of 9 points, not includeing triple plays. (1071 averages 12-15 points per match)

Its realistic to say team 230 would have scored atleast 12 - 18 points not includeing possible triple plays. (230 was averageing like 12 - 15 when they weren’t being hit and defended in qualifing).

That movie is probably the only effective way to play defense, which is takeing one team out of the picture and effectivly allowing the other 4 teams to do the scoreing. Had we choosen offense, our alliance would have probably still won, but instead maybe the win would have been by 3-6 points instead of 14.

If we felt (or the alliance captain felt) the other two teams on our alliance couldn’t outscore the 2 teams from the other alliance obviously defense would not have been an option.

If any of missed that play, here’s the video:
0.6 Mb Video :: stolentetra.wmv