The question is, do we need to have permission to set up wireless networks at competitions for scouting? We are just asking now because we started to develop our system after regionals.
My next worry is for next year. The robots will be capable of being wirelessly programmed, so how will that effect wireless scouting?
That is a good question. I remember reading this year that in Atlanta for the Championship, there were to be no wireless networks set up. Most likely because of the new control system.
At this point in time, I would say no to wireless networks, but only time will tell. My best advice would be to create a plan B scouting system just in case.
Its simple. Don’t use 802.11b/g/n
Use 802.11a and you should be in the clear, as there are no interference problems as it runs on a totally different band.
I would be shocked if FIRST allows any wireless networks next year.
I know FIRST has one, but it’s official business only. (uploading results/webcast)
I think you would because FIRST will want to remove interference as much as possible. Then again, ask as soon as Q&A comes up for next year and you may get a different answer.
If I remember the discussion with the NI representative correctly, some of the demo equipment was running on 802.11a, and other equipment was on 802.11g, at the last Championship. As of April, it wasn’t known which implementation was going to be used.
I’ve tried writing this post twice because I see the reasons to have a wireless network and to not have a wireless network. I know at certain venues you were not allowed to host your own wireless network. Wireless next year will be pretty touchy.
Robots will be wireless (as with any other year it has been), but next year it will be using an 802.11a/b/g/n signal. Probably not n, but it will definitely be one of those four. With any wireless network there will probably be interference (FM radio by my cable modem causes tons of interference that makes my radio useless in its location.) There is so much that is uncertain right now with the control system next year. I’m still wondering how they will keep other teams from accidentally or purposely (bad GP) messing with other team’s robots through the wireless programming. At competition, I would almost bet that they would make teams program via ethernet cable and tether, much like they have done for many years.
Since so much is uncertain at this point, no one can clearly say. For now I would say no, wireless computer communication will not be allowed in any way, shape, or form.
I realize that the additional wireless networks may cause interference, but so do all of the wireless networks FIRST can’t regulate, and the 2.4 GHz cordless phones, and Bluetooth, and anything else that happens to run at 2.4 GHz.
Personally I don’t think that any such restrictions would be practical or even possible to enforce, and if the new control system can’t handle some other networks in the same area, then we’re going to have some big problems next year, especially with the number of wireless networks growing like they are.
EDIT: I have to think that the best way for FIRST to go is to use 802.11a, which is almost non-existant these days, and let us do whatever we want in the 2.4Ghz area. The only issue would be bandwidth.
but hey, as an aside, hoepfully they’ll allow two-way radios again!
In the words of Mr. T, I pity the fool who would have to enforce that rule.
“Excuse me, Mr. Legimate Businessman next to arena. It seems that we are picking up some signals from your Wifi network next door. I’m sorry, but your Wifi might screw with our robots. Please stop doing business these next three days so we can play.”
If FIRST genuinely thinks they can outright ban and expect to find no wireless networks at any of the Regional and/or Championship competition venues, they have some serious hubris issues.
that would be nice it was hard to keep everyone organized just useing cell phones
I meant team networks, which are also nearly impossible to police if the team doesn’t put anything identifying in the network id.
Not too likely, considering FIRST uses them for communication between volunteers. Someone with a two-way radio could probably wreak a lot of havok with team queuing/event management.
True, but if someone was going to do that I don’t think the rules would make a difference.
A few notes:
No official policy for 2009 has been released. Speculation on said policy is not useful at this time.
Planning to violate said unknown policy is not useful and goes well against the spirit of FIRST.
If said unknown policy does forbid certain types of networks, and you knowingly ignore the policy, I can and will find you. At that point, I will personally tell your grandmothers what you did.
This isn’t a matter of whether or not an unknown policy makes sense. This is a matter of doing the right thing.
As for whether or not the policy will make sense when it is known, have a little faith.
If all the controls are running on 2.4, I would just get a new 802.11n router that can run on the 5.0Ghz band. That should eliminate interference and create a really large coverage area.
Based on what I heard from NI, they believe that 802.11 A is an “old” technology and not worth using for the robots … therefore, all you need to do is use A (5.8 Ghz) and there will be no interference issues and no problem
So the general idea here is that it is unlikely that they will allow wireless networks next year. It’s a real shame because that’s how a lot of teams are probably going to start doing their scouting.
Now, was wireless networks allowed this year?
I believe they were allowed at regionals, but not the championship
It depends on the system FIRST/NI goes with. It has been explained in other threads there are three non-overlapping channels (11 total, but some overlap), channel… 1 for example, could be set aside for team use. I don’t see this happening as it is too confusing, if non-interference is essential, but it would work. Then again, if non-interference is essential, you shouldn’t be using the 2.4Ghz band.
I hope we go with a 5.0Ghz system (I believe 802.11a does and with some configuration, n does too), with a single FIRST-controlled access point that all the control stations plug into (that means 7 wireless broadcasting devices total), and use a small Wifi-Ethernet bridge to use with the robot, which would look very much like the older transmitters. Lots of bandwidth, less interference then having an access point on each robot and 12 broadcasting nodes, simple, one network to connect to, no confusion. Hopefully. I have no clue how this will all be zero configuration. Each robot connects to a authentication-required access point, always called “FRC” or something, and gets an IPv4 address with DHCP, then discovers the driver controller with a service discovery protocol, driver controller pings back, station light stops blinking. Hm, idk how I feel about using WiFi after all :-/
I am also awaiting the return of Sundial, that would mean reserving a channel if not the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum, for team use. On a side note, I hope the field controller is free software along with the robot controller library (right now only the programming library has been mentioned, and it has only been called open source, of which free software is more or less a subset). Maybe I will start a thread on the field controller exclusively.
So, 900Mhz video systems are looking like a good possibility, but could find another use in FRC besides personnel two-way-radios. Dial up modems anyone? Don’t worry, the theoretical speed from a 900Mhs two-way-radio is orders faster then telephone.
You could use Light for medium distance communications: http://ronja.twibright.com/
Whichever band of Wi-Fi FIRST uses (2.4Ghz vs 5Ghz), use the other. If the field controller uses a single access point, that means one channel, so you could use a different channel, 1, 6, or 11 depending on what FIRST is not using. Again, this could get confusing, even using a different band entirely, so not even that may be allowed.
The Short answer: Plan on using good ol’ Ethernet, but wait and see. Ethernet attached to a plain old router (even a wireless one with WiFi turned off) saves lots of time and hassle anyways, if three extra cables are not too much work for you.