Women and the Draft

This was originaly posted in the Draft thread but was “polluting” it.

Things like the draft bring me to the following conclusion: women should not have the right to vote or hold public office.

I find it interesting that women want equal rights; yet, they don’t have to be a part of the draft. Why isn’t there a feminist movement to allow women into the draft?

Let’s see some intelligent discussion on the issue.

[Quote108th CONGRESS 1st Session S. 89]To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

I thought that might be useful for continued discussion, and I wanted to make point from it at the least.

As for women’s voting rights, and equal opportunity, the current write up for a draft does state the “fair game” of the use of women. (I apologize for the lack of words). I thouroughly believe for so many years, women were not allowed to do such “dirty work” that would be found if drafted, because man did not think they were capable. Through settler times, women were possessions - I do a great deal of genealogical research and you will find on a majority of grave markers from early times “his wife, or my wife”, as this is not common practice in recent days. Time evolved, more womens movements have occured, and more has been done. In WWII, the woman was a major role in society. Here on the homeland, she was producing war materials day after day in the factories, and providing entertainment in such ways as the All American Girls Baseball League. Since WWII, we have seen an overwhelming change of the role of the woman in society, it is quite frequent that women have a great equcation, and can compete against their male counterparts. Therefore, I think if our Congress believes it is necissary to reinstate a Draft, then I hope all women will hold the ground that was gained for them through all these years, and take on the new role.

Well, the SSS classifications allow for classifying males in non-combat roles. I don’t think that it’d be much of a stretch to have classifications for women in an everything-but-infantry status. Obvious exceptions, of course, going to mothers (probably falling under hardship status) and the like.

I believe that most women are fully capable of anything the men can do, sometimes better. And I’m pretty sure that the main opposition to the idea would come from the anti-draft camp, which would be arguing against it anyway.

(GRR. My computer crashed and just deleted my whole shpiel. Anywho.)

The reason that there are hardly any feminist movements for the drafts is because of the fact that feminists have been historically known to support peace: http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/women/html/wh_028000_peacemovemen.htm

The Constitution states that no right to vote shall be denied an American citizen on the basis of sex. Some take the loose interpretation of the constitution and say that this “right” can be extended to different aspects of a woman’s life, as well. Seeing this, there can be more than one interpretation to the draft. On one hand, the draft can be the right that the Constitution discusses, and it would be up to the individual to protect the liberty of her nation.

On the other hand, the draft can be seen as an invasion on the individual liberty that the Constitution states it would grant any American citizen, in this case, women.

It’s been quite a while…

When I took the SAT I remember only males having to complete a section on registering for a military draft. Is that correct?

I certainly did not have to do that when I took it this past March.

Scary times… I feel like siging ‘White Rabbit’ for no reason… woah, anyway…

Yes, women should be in any future draft. While I’m not sexist, raceist, or other not-good-ist, I think that when you want equal rights, you need to take it all, not just what you want. Women wanted to vote, own land, and have the same rights and freedom as men, and most recently, more economic and business freedome. I totally agree with them, but it’s just wrong for you to demand for equal rights, but then back down when it comes to a draft.

If you go to this website, you can check if you are registered to participate in the draft. I registered 5/30/2001, that date was about 1 month before I graduated high school. I would have been 17 at the time. Perhaps it’s not tied in with the SAT, but I’m sure my high school played a part in having me register for a draft.

EDIT:
Now I remember, you are encouraged to register when you complete the FAFSA. I did, considering the penalty for not registering is $250,000 and/or 5 years in prison. Plus, I do have some respect for my country.

If you check this website, you will find an overview of the history of women and the draft. In 1981 the Supreme Court has said that it does not violate the constitution to only register men for the draft. The Department of Defense reviewed the idea of women in the draft in 1994. They concluded that since there is a policy that women can not participate in front line combat, there’s little benifet in drafting them.

Also note, that currently it is not possible for a woman to register for the draft.

I’ve begun to believe that can only happen if you do not participate.

I cannot fathom how your ignorance continues to shock and amaze me. I should, by now, be completely desensitized by all of it.

And, since it may not be obvious, though it should be – you can be sure that I’ll have a lot more to say about combating misogyny here on CD.com, feminism and differing ideas about conscription, and what happens when you make ridiculous assumptions about whole groups of people and why that makes you look like a moron.

There should be absolutely no need nor justification at all for an “intelligent discussion” about why women deserve equal rights. While we’re at it, who feels like reevaluating slavery?

Please, explain to me why I should be required to enganger my life for the country and you as a woman should not. Furthermore, explain why you believe you should be able to vote a person into office who might send the men of this country into a war while you sit at home.

Using your logic… Why should physically handicaped be able to vote? Why should senior citizens be allowed to vote? I find your arguement flawed and sexist.

The 19th ammendment permits women to vote, deal with it or try to do something about it. I think this conversation was over long before it started.

They are minorities. Women are not minorities.

EDIT:
Sure women have the right to vote. This thread is about women and their involvement in protecting their freedoms. I don’t understand why we can’t discuss this without personal attacks.

Maybe you should focus your attention on changing this Instead of going negative by saying that “since women can’t get drafted, they shouldn’t be able to vote” maybe you should be saying “why aren’t women allowed to fight on the front line?”

Would you deny the women serving in the armed forces the right to vote? If they should be allowed to vote, why shouldn’t every woman be allowed to vote? Or is this all about the military service? Maybe we should just allow members of the military to vote? Where are we going here?

Great post, let me put together a good response. For right now I leave you all with this quote from Martin Luther King Jr:

Wow now…let’s ease the tension. I think the main focus of this post (ideally) is what role women should play in the draft, and for the sake of avoiding argument, I’d like to stick to that. Personally, I would avoid the draft at all costs as a person because of beliefs, not because of my being female. If I was, however drafted, I would not feel very comfortable saying goodbye to male friends and watching them forced into service while I get out on account of something that is not by any means an issue (physical hardship, pregnancy are good physical reasons, not “womanness”.) So I have to say my answer is yes, women should be included, because military is more than frontline combat, which I personally would never participate in through this conflict.

My 0.02

Do I want to enter this discussion? Can I resist entering this discussion?

I agree completely that women should be drafted. I find it rather ridiculous that the arguements against allowing women to serve in infantry combat are centered on the physical differences between men and women. While agree that this is obviously an issue, if a woman meets all of the physical requirements (height, weight, stamina, strength, etc) and passes the physical exam, then what difference in the world does it make that she is a woman? How on earth can an argument such as “Women are physically weaker than men” (although based in a generalized truth) still apply?

The only part of Mike’s comments that I find offensive is that he seems to be attacking women without letting them speak first. If it is in fact true that women are opposed to being drafted, then I believe it’s a valid argument to ask why they support equal rights but not equal responsibilities. However, his comments are based off of that assumption, which is an unfair assumption to make.

I personally feel that women should not only be allowed to fight in the front lines but also should be drafted. If women could be drafted (can they?), I think I would sign up for the draft, to prove what we’ve all been hearing all our lives: that women can do anything men can do. Maybe it would be a large step for the woman’s lib movement if we saw women taking on what remains to this day an untraditional role instead of women trying to convert each other to engineering.

Oh boy. ducks

(Disclaimer: I find nothing wrong with women being engineers. In fact, I want to be an engineer. Please hold the rotten tomatoes.)

Things like the draft bring me to the following conclusion: women should not have the right to vote or hold public office.

Things such as the garbage you pollute on these boards, irrespective of which thread you post to, lead me to believe that you possess an ignorance that is both astounding and terrifying. Your misinformed, incorrect, damaging and hurtful “conclusions” are setting the progress of this organization back, wasting my time, and planting the seeds for continued sexism, discrimination and ridiculous, unnecessary discourse like that taking place in this thread.

There is absolutely zero need to reassess the goals and accomplishments of the women’s suffrage and equal rights movements as both were wholly justified in their efforts toward creating equality in law and life between men and women. You’re ridiculous conclusion that women should not have the right to vote nor hold public office is, aside from obviously sexist, ill-formed and antiquated, borne out of a gargantuan, obvious lack of insight into any of the subjects about which you write.

What further justification can you provide to defend your conclusion? I am confident that there are no observations that you have made regarding the women’s movement that have gone unnoticed in the past century by the many who have come before you in their efforts to perpetuate continued misogyny and sexism. I am certain that you have no more tenable ideas regarding why women are somehow your inferior. The only thing about which I am uncertain, really, is if you possess the self-preservation instinct to cut your losses and walk away. Time will tell. You were off to a good start, at the very least, when you started trying to rescind and shift focus away from the comments you made at the outset, instead pretending that this is a discussion about “women and their involvement in protecting their freedoms.” It was a laudable, if utterly transparent, effort at saving face.

It seems that for the purposes of defending your conclusion, defending one’s freedom can only occur through the use of violence - taking up arms against those who are perceived to be a physical threat to the safety of our borders. This, oddly enough, seems somewhat inconsistent with your fervent assurance that the United States doesn’t “ignore oppressive dictators” in a previous thread, unless of course you meant simply that we don’t ignore oppressive dictators that threaten our physical or economic well-being. The United States ignored the oppression of non-Aryans by Adolf Hitler for eight years before entering World War II after the attack at Pearl Harbor. Only after December 7, 1941 and an attack on its own (imperially-conquered) soil did the United States show any interest in that particularly oppressive dictator. So, on second thought, it seems as if by reading between the lines, your stated position has been entirely consistent. You’re interested only in yourself and in protecting your freedoms. You show very little concern for others, their struggles, or their freedom - unless, of course, it becomes politically advantageous for you to show such concern. Thus, comments such as those you made above, suggesting that women be denied equal rights seem perfectly logical and acceptable - even preferable - in your distorted view of reality. Perhaps you’re unaware of the times when the United States has taken up arms against its own people - the internment of the Japanese during World War II being the most notable. Whose freedom were we protecting then? It certainly doesn’t seem like we were at all interested in defending the interests of the minority at the time, something you’ve previously heralded as “American.”

I’m sorry that you don’t believe that women like Rosa Parks, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Susan B. Anthony did nothing to defend their freedom. Perhaps you’d have more respect for Ms. Parks if, instead of refusing to give up her seat on the bus, she physically assaulted the other riders.

Women are not exempt from the draft, they are denied access to it. This is a very important distinction that you don’t seem too keen on making because it undermines everything you’ve written thus far. If a woman wanted to be conscripted, she could not be, both legally and as a matter of Department of Defense policy. These laws are based on archaic information from the last time a draft was instated - and subsequent laws using data from that time period as a reference. All reevaluations of the conscription laws and policies have cited these archaic court decisions as justification for continued denial of access to the draft for women.

Challenges of these laws and policies that have been taken to the courts go nowhere because they deal with the policies and practices of making and maintaining war - a responsibility afforded exclusively to the United States Congress as per our Constitution. Thus, courts have very little power in altering Congress’ ability to deny women access to the draft and, as a result, the draft and military policies remain as they were created - nearly twenty five years ago.

Your argument, in short, is that because women are denied equality by law and by practice, they are undeserving of even the best effort toward achieving equality. It is disconnected and obtuse at best; truly incomprehensible at worst. The sexism of the generations that preceded us is no excuse for continued sexism among our generation. Because you deny someone some of their rights, you cannot use that as a legitimate excuse to deny them all of their rights.

Why isn’t there a feminist movement to allow women into the draft?

Feminism, as Lisa already mentioned, is often associated with anti-war and pro-peace movements. What little feminist discourse there is about feminism and conscription shows overwhelming support for equal inclusion, but often argues for mutual exclusion from the draft.

Please, explain to me why I should be required to enganger [sic] my life for the country and you as a woman should not. Furthermore, explain why you believe you should be able to vote a person into office who might send the men of this country into a war while you sit at home.

Why should a Congress of men and women, each of whom are too old to be conscripted themselves, be able to call up a draft? They’re not going to be doing much during a war except sitting around, too.

I defend my freedom by being sure that ignorance, sexism, discrimination and violence are challenged, questioned, noted, and stopped at every opportunity. Others can waste their time running around other countries chasing phantom threats with their machine guns and their tanks and their planes. I can see pretty clearly that there’s plenty within our borders that needs to be defended against and I’m perfectly content earning my right to vote by making sure that people like you are consistently debunked, embarrassed, and stripped of any ability to hurt others.

Purpose:
To illustrate the problems and perhaps future endeavors of the feminist movement in the United States. I will also explain why women should not participate in a representative government due to their lack of military responsibility in keeping the United States of America a free country.

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protestor to burn the flag.

  • Father Denis Edward O’Brien USMC

The United States of America was founded under the ideals that we will fight for our freedom. We have a paid military that receives compensation in various forms. The representative military carries out the will of all US citizens. In extreme times it is necessary to increase the size of the military by drafting citizens.

It’s really quite simple- if we don’t wage war on the evils of the world, we will lose our freedom. Therefore, at times we must increase the size of our standing army.

Currently the Selective Service System of the government only drafts men. The Department of Defense has said claimed that because of current policies to not allow women on the front combat lines, there is little in drafting them. Why aren’t women attempting to obtain the right to register for the draft?

The feminist movement occurred very recently in our history, approximately 1971. During times in US history women were not allowed to own land, vote or hold public office. They fought hard for what they have achieved. Yet, why haven’t they even attempted to argue for their ability to fulfill their military responsibility?

Ms. Perez has suggested that feminists haven’t fought for more roles in military because feminists have historically been known to support peace. Unfortunately, the feminist all to easily forget that it’s America’s soldiers and war who have given them the rights they enjoy today.

The United States has a history of protecting those who are helpless or need assistance. It’s the reason we helped Kuwait after being invaded by Iraq during the first Gulf War, or the reason we provide government funded care for people who are unable to care for themselves. Handicapped and most deficient people are required to register for the draft, but almost never serve. Would a woman argue that she is helpless and that’s why she would qualify for the special privilege of not being drafted?

There is no reasonable reason for women to not register for a military draft. Therefore, you come to the following pop-culture phrase, “women like to have their cake and eat it too.” They want the positive benefits of a free society but none of the negatives, they’ll leave that for the men.

I find it difficult to justify why women should have the right to vote or hold office, without accepting the military responsibility that comes with their freedom. I believe any person who joins the military should be commended, particularly women; including allowing those women the right to hold office or vote. They have accepted their military responsibility and should be allowed to participate in our representative government. Men, even if they have never served in the military accept their military responsibility by registering for the draft. Any man who does not register for the draft should not be allowed to participate in government.

In conclusion, with the liberties of becoming a United States citizen so does the responsibility. As a US citizen we have the responsibility to protect ourselves and the helpless. It’s time for women to accept their military responsibility or lose their right to participate in government and accept that they are among the helpless.

Please note:
I don’t personally believe what I just wrote. I don’t think women should be forced into the serving the military, I also don’t think they should lose their ability to participate in the government. My male instincts tell me women should not be forced into war, a “feeling from the heart” you could say. However, when you logicality evaluate the current circumstances, it makes me second-guess my instinct.

Again, this is all based on the assumption that the women think that they are “helpless” and therefore should not be included in the draft. This cannot be proven true UNLESS the opinion of solely the women is taken - and the only way to do this is to poll all women of draft conscription age in America.