Yellow and Red in same match

Last weekend, my team was disqualified from their first match with a yellow and red card. The pilot reached outside of the airship twice to pull in two different gears. At the end of the match, the team was shown a yellow and red card at the same time.

The rule was very clear in the manual, so the pilot should have known better.

Still, it seems harsh to give a red card for two identical infractions in the same match, since the second infraction occurred before the yellow card was issued. It seems the spirit of the rule is that everyone gets one warning and if they do it again, they get the red.

I don’t blame the referee, since I think she appropriately applied the rule according to the letter of the law, but I don’t think a team should get a red card before they are even aware that they received a yellow card.

I’m far too close to the situation to think my opinion is justified, so I’m curious to know what others think.

Well if the hand stayed above the deck of the airship it’s fair game if it went below the deck of the airship more then once then the ref is correct by the room book as it per occurance tough sledding ik but it is what it is

In a similar manner it’s like getting multiple fouls for breaking a rule multiple times. If you only got one foul for the actions there would be no incentive to follow the rules for the entirety of the match.

Would you have the same opinion if the second violation was for a robot launching a gear, during the same match? Or, for that matter, for any other offense that may have rated a yellow card but was committed before the first yellow card was shown at the end of the match?

It is entirely possible to get simultaneous–or even near-simultaneous–yellow cards for two separate offenses. (S04/S09–in the event of someone going over the guardrail onto a non-green field–is one such scenario.) In such a case, should the red not be assessed?

Just trying to feel out how you think on related matters.

(Also… the cards may have disappeared, courtesy of part of the next Team Update being announced and applied retroactively. Thank Frank.)

Hm. As you’ve said, receiving two yellow cards in the same match for the same infraction results in a yellow card. This is pretty clearly laid out in the rules. But I see your point. The yellow cards are meant to be warnings for egregious behavior. But even if your Pilot was unaware of the rule or had a misunderstanding of the rule, the yellow card was unable to serve as a warning before your Pilot committed the same infraction. For some perspective, check out this thread. It talks about what I think was the first usage of the yellow card/red card system, and the rules were pretty much the same then as they are now. The Andy’s have some pretty good posts talking about the intent and weight a yellow card is supposed to carry. I think the takeaway is that every member of your drive team should have the rules memorized forwards backwards and sideways, and they should pay special attention to what infractions could get them yellow cards. Life expects you to play by the rules even if you don’t know them. FIRST does too.

Your interpretation of the rule wasn’t how it was applied. This was what led to the confusion. The hand was above the deck, but outside the airship - the gear has to be pulled into the airship, rather than just pulled up above the deck. It wasn’t made clear in the drive team meeting (the proper gear retrieval should probably be demonstrated during that meeting).

Fair point. I think discretion could be applied in a team’s first match (and 5th of the tournament) to err on the side of teams lacking understanding of the rules over taking advantage of them though.

These are really good questions. I don’t know. My instinct is that two different yellow card infractions should lead to a red. But then that goes against my idea that teams should get a warning first. Perhaps the rule could be written for a red card, but the referee should be given license to make exception in the first round when teams are still learning the rules, which is what I think the the yellow card is for.

Thanks for the link! I agree with you in general, specifically that the drive team should know every rule. I get that life expects us to play by the rules, but 1) I cannot think of an example in which I could receive an escalated punishment after not being made aware of the initial infraction (although I probably don’t have enough history of breaking rules to know if it happens) and 2) High School isn’t real life and we can’t hold them to the same expectations of 25+ year olds. The yellow card should be a learning experience. If it isn’t meant to serve as a warning, it should be done away with and everything should be a straight red.

That interpretation was the Friday night change to the rules. Pilots are now allowed to put their hands out the Airship, as long as they do not extend below the deck.

Since this happened to Team 4456 on their first match, the more restrictive rules were in effect at that time (not allowed to extend outside the Airship). The Red card was removed on Friday night, and the appropriate RP points were credited to Team 4456 due to the rule change.

IMHO, it is fair for 2 Yellows in a match to receive a Red Card, even if it is for the same offense. There are some fouls that result in an immediate Red Card, and some fouls, if Egregious or Repeated will result in a Red Card. Two Yellows for the same foul is basically Repeated.

Thanks for the clarification. In this case, I don’t think the Red Card was overturned since the red card was issued Saturday morning. Perhaps the pilot was judged to have reached below the deck. I don’t think he did, but that one is a judgement call that goes to the referee. I have asked for more information from the referee about how the rule change was applied.

It seems like most of you agree that two infractions in the same match should receive red, even if it is the first match. I guess letting one slide would set a dangerous precedent. Thanks!

The rule update does not actually say pilots are allowed to reach out of the airship port. The clarification in the blog post was:

If a pilot reaches far out of the airship or for an extended period of time to manipulate a gear or carriage, even above the deck, it still qualifies for an S07-C yellow card.

What was called this past weekend may not exactly match what the change intends.