As the head ref at the 2004 IRI, I initiated a yellow card / red card warning and penalty system. The idea was generated by some smart people in this thread.
Before I describe what all happened, I want to say why I am starting this thread. The point of this thread is to discuss and evaluate the yellow card / red card system, not debate the calls made by the refs. If you wish to do that, please PM or email me directly. What we were trying to do at IRI was test a new tool for the refs to use to make things clear to all competitors and fair for teams. Refs are still human, and their decisions are not perfect in everyoneâs eyes. This is just a possible tool for them to use.
Yellow Card
each team can only get 1 yellow card for the entire competition
a yellow card is a serious, public warning that this team ALMOST received a disqualification (DQ)
yellow cards are given after the match is over, after the referee team discussed the situation
teams are told what their yellow card is issued for
spectators are also told what the yellow card is for and who it is given to (briefly)
the head ref notes the team who received the yellow card
Red Card
a red card is given to a team who has been DQâed for the previous match
red cards are given after the match is over, after the referee crew discusses the situation
teams are told what their red card is issued for
spectators are told what the red card is issued for
referees do not have to use a yellow card before using a red card
Usage at IRI:
1 yellow card was given team A for tipping
1 yellow card was given team B for grabbing another teams drive base and not letting go (they probably did not mean to do it, but it happened)
1 yellow card was given team C for running into another team with their grabber. The nature of the action, combined with their specific grabber design led to this yellow card.
1 red card was given to team team D for an entanglement of their hook into their opponentâs drive base
1 red card was given to team team E for an entanglement of their hook into their opponentâs robot structure (carabiner could not let go)
1 red card was given to team C for a similar move they did to get their previous yellow card.
Referees have a difficult time judging intent. Each of these cases could be un-intentional, but still needed to be warned or penalized. These teams were all competing hard and trying to play the game the best they could. I debated about listing their team numbers here, but saw no benefit in doing that. Further down in this thread, team numbers may come out, but I am going to error on the side of anonimity at this point. Besides these calls, there were other plays where some teams ALMOST got a yellow card, but did not. I can think of a few other instances where a yellow card may have been issued, but the referee crew were less sure of the situation.
In each case of the yellow card given, teams were told why they were warned. We gave team B a yellow card after they left the field, but they were told about it before their next match started.
I have already heard some positives and negatives about this system. FIRST will benefit if we discuss this fairly. Please post your opinions and thoughts on this.
I thought the Red/Yellow card usage was great, it is a great way of giving a warning that means something, and makes sure that the offender changes thier ways before serious pentaltys are issued.
Does this mean if a team earns a second yellow card, theyâre disqualified?
If these cards are being done âsoccer styleâ, Iâd like to propose a soccer style ammendment. During the World Cup and other two stage FIFA competitions, a playerâs yellow cards carry on throughout each phase of the competition. This means that if a player picks up a yellow in game one, and as well in game two, he is disqualified for game three. However these cards do not carry over to the second round of competition.
When it comes to the elimination rounds, an entire alliance could be disqualified for a yellow card earned by a single team in a qualification round match. Thatâs why I propose that a team only be allowed 1 yellow card for each round of competition (qualfication and elimination).
Since the referees still have the discretion to award a red card at any point, I donât see this as a huge restriction. Any team who tries to take advantage of the fact that the cards have been reset, could easily be assessed a red card. Iâd just hate to see a second offense, which only warrants a warning, be the demise of an entire alliance.
I understood this part of the system. The soccer parallel I was trying to draw was in cumulative nature of the penalties, not in reference to the timing of the punishments. (Clearly it would be ludicrous to dq a team from a subsequent match, unless their robot was an inherent safety risk)
I really liked the whole card system. Itâs good for the spectator because they can learn some of the intricacies of the rules. Also it can show other teams rules that the refs are looking closer at enforcing. Another reason it is good is that before when you got DQâed sometimes there wasnât a real clear explanation given to teams. This gives a channel of communication between the refs and the teams that before wasnât present.
Ahh, the infamous teamâŚerâŚC DQing. Receiving a yellow in the qualifyers, and a red in the elims. Yellow cards SHOULD carry over in this case to the elims. Because of in more minor or unsure of intention offenses, such as the arm situation with team C, it grants them, âa free hitâ during the elims otherwise. In this specific case, there were other ways for Team C to prevent the opposing robot from haning, other than the manner they did, which would not grant a DQing, or even a yellow card.
My only problem with the yellow card, is that it forces the ref into the red card call the second time, even if the action wouldnt normally be a DQ. If it occurs a second time, and the second time it could very well be an accident, or it is far less severe of an infringment, if you dont call it it looks like favoritism or not being strong enough to DQ. Either way it can upset teams, and decrease the level of fair play. But if you do call it, your making an alliance that doesnt necisarrily deserve to lose, lose. Id go with a similar system, of warning them in private. That way, if a lesser case occurs, the only team that knows about it, is the infracting team.
To put what I think you said into different wordsâŚ
Teams should be able to recieve more than one yellow, and the red card should be used on more severe offences.
For some instance I would agree, some I would disagree.
Disagree: If a team commits the same "foulâ twice. I believe that if a team does what 469 did, go at a robot with the arm out. The first time, the were given a yellow card, and warned that if it was done again they would recieve a red.
Agree: If a team commits 2 different fouls. For instance; If a team tipped another robot in one match, and the grabbed on the ther drive base in another and didnât let go. That would warrent for a red card the second match, but I believe that there should be different catagories for yellow card cumulation.
Itâs an interesting point, but I think making other teams and the audience aware of the infraction is the most important piece of the system. By doing this, you make all the other teams aware of how the refs are viewing certain behavior and therefore you reduce the possibility of other teams making the same mistake (and that really is the point, right? Weâd rather other teams learn from one teamâs mistake than have to punish multiple teams for the same thing). Also I feel it makes each team a little more accountable for their actions. I would expect that most teams would be a little embarassed about being called out in front of the audience for a rules violation, and that alone might be enough of a motivator for everyone to think about their actions before they become a problem instead of after.
I thought the system at IRI was done well. The refs did a great job of applying the rules fairly to all teams.
I remember watching many rounds, and a certian person next to me was actaully yelling at andy to give them a yellow card. If he didnât do it, this person probably would have beat him up. (kidding of course)
By telling the audience it show other teams that they cannot get away with the behavior, and that they must follow the rules if the wish to go unpenalized.
well this can all go with the discussion, with how much like soccer do you want FIRST to become, it may get to the point where parents will start brawls in the bleachers
There are 2 reasons why there are rules⌠atleast 2 that i can think of⌠rules make the game more entertaining, and they are in place, for you (or the robots) saftey and protections, as a soccer ref, i cant even count how many times kids would walk onto my field without shinguards and cleats⌠i always threw them off, some did some didnt, they are required for a reason, reasons i have learned.
The Yellow and Red card is great it shows proof that the refs just do more than belly checks and count balls.
This is a game folks, and rules are rules, even if you kinda sorta broke one rule in the end its still broken
-Big Mike
Off to Fix my Rules⌠They are All Broken
I think the card system is greatâŚtoo many times I have seen over the years teams disqualified for something that they were warned about several times and brushed off (then complained afterwards) and sometimes I have seen teams disqualified w/o any kind of warning because of what the other teams have done similar. Now with the new card system, teams will physically see the warning and know that the referees are serious truely serious. They will have a good enough warning and have no reason to complain about a DQ coming out of nowhere. Excellent idea and Id like to see it used in the upcoming FIRST season.
In my opinion, if there is any doubt into whether there was any ill intention in âpushyâ situations, the referees should penalize them. The refsâ jobs/volunteer duties are to keep the FIRST competition friendly and graciously professional. I agree with the previous thread that ramming is illegal. FIRST components are not designed to withstand kinetic energies put on them.
If a robot is moving along and another robot puts its arm in the way and it gets knocked over, that is unintentional (no or low penalties).
If a robot backs up 10 feet and then cries âCharge!!â, that is ârammingâ and should have a high penalty, depending on the damage that it does. (ie tip over = yellow card. disable (electronic damage) = instant dq). If a robot is moving along and it gets some electrical damage, that is their fault, but if it gets charged, that isnât fair.
In addition, it should be illegal for a robot to lead with a âspearâ. while I donât doubt that team A had no intention of shutting off (or causing severe electrical damge to) team B, it definitely could have happened. If the claw had opened, and it had landed in the electronics, even if they tried to let go, it would have undoubtedly stripped team Bâs electronics. I would have felt terrible for team B if their robot got disabled that way and they had to miss out on being IRI champions.
But the Refs at IRI were great in that respect. They called penalties if they had the slightest doubt, which is what should be done. Hats off to them.
Sean has a good point here. The solution to this is the fact that a âyellow cardâ is given for only very serious offenses that are on the edge of being DQ situations. It should be meant to be a smidge bit away from being a DQ. The refs are ALMOST giving a DQ to a team, but they are not 100% sure about it, so they give a yellow card. That is the reason I said this above:
We appreciate the kind words, but we really only call the penalties if we are sure about the call. There were many times where the refs were not sure (they had a doubt) about something, and therefore we did not call it. This happened with tipping, assisting a goal, and ball corral encroachment.
An example:
âone of those balls might have gone in the goal after touching their robot.â
âare you sure?â
âno, it was close, I am not sureâ
âthen weâre not going to call itâ
As for the yellow card, I like the fact that it puts the onus back on the team. There is no penalty for having a yellow card, but the team knows that if they do something similar in a forthcoming match, they will get DQâed.
A detail that needs to be ironed out is the quantity of yellow cards. Karthik brings up a good point above, with the idea of getting cleared yellow card status for the elimination rounds. I would vote against the idea, for 2 reasons:
getting cleared status for the finals lessens the severity of a yellow card
while there is no penalty for a yellow card in a qualification match, it WILL make an impact on the decisions of a picking team: âshould we pick team A or B? they both are good⌠but team B got a yellow card⌠hmmmmâ
while there is no penalty for a yellow card in a qualification match, it WILL make an impact on the decisions of a picking team: âshould we pick team A or B? they both are good⌠but team B got a yellow card⌠hmmmmâ
Wow good pointâŚthis would even further deter teams from trying to live to close to the edge in qualification matches becuase getting a yellow card then would definately lessen the chances of being picked. Being one penalty away from a DQ could end up costing your team a trip to elimâs. Knowing this throughout all of the Q. Matches would definately have an impact on the way the drivers compete.
Andy, one thing i saw as working with the displays in the Aux. gym is that there was no field display in there. There was the âpit displayâ of rankings being projected, but the drive teams that were located in there, if were not present on the field during the explaination of a yellow or red card call is they didnt know it occured, or why it occured. Yes they have the team out on the field in the stands but i know of many teams that dont have communication between the team in stands and drive team much during a competition. So i think if this system is going to be put into work, when a red card or yellow card is given, everyone should be made aware of the reasoning behind it and it should be saved for referance so if a team asks they can be told later on why a car was given.
Also another question would be could these cards follow a team to their next competition. I know that sounds doubtful, but think about it a little. Team X at competition 1 intentionally hooks a robot and get a yellow card for it. They dont do it again at competition 1 but when Team X is at competition 2, they do the same thing over again intentionally and once again get a yellow card. Now if this second occurance would deserve a red card, but due them trying to fool the crew because they are at a new event, should they get a dq for intentionally hooking a bot a second time or will cards thrown at an event stay at that event only?
Any way i think this idea was implemented great at IRI and could be improved into a well thought out and desinged system in which could be used at any/all FIRST competition and would improve the competitions.
Nice job Mr. Baker and other IRI refs on your fair and professional job done at the 2004 IRI.
I finally gathered a my thoughts about the card system at IRI. At the prompting of Aidan I submitted new rule <g35> . This is the card system. I have hit the wall several times on some of the issue you bring up. Do it penalize to much for minor infractions especially in the elims? Should there be different penalties for different things? If you notice, my first and second drafts even have a two match time limit. After watching it play out a IRI I think how it was handled was the fairest and best way to make the system work. Iâll list some answers to my questions and then why I think IRI implementation worked the best.
About the penalizing for minor infractions, it could happen. Should it happen, maybe yes maybe no. At some point we as teams have to give some discretion to the referees and accept what they hand down. We can gain a feel for the calls refs throughout the day by the yellow cards they hand out. It is kind of like playing basketball. Some days the refs will âlet them playâ while other time they want to âbe in control of the gameâ. Refs use a lot of discretion in making calls and are expected to make fair and balanced calls. If they didnât we wouldnât love Andy so much.
In the thoughts of different cards for tipping or ramming or other illegal actions I think we shouldnât need to tell teams what they canât do. You should know and gain a feel of how tight they are calling it throughout the day. They keep slimming the rule book for a reason. For you will read it. That whole no entangling, tipping, ramming rule should be followed. I know it can be unintentional because of the distance, line of sight, and controls of the robot. But if youâve been warned and you know I might entangle with, tip, or ram that robot that could cause possible harm to it and be DQed, you should stay a little farther away or be more cautious in your controls, aka not coming full speed towards them with your arm out towards them. So no seperate penalties, itâs all against the rules. Plus it helps simplify the rulebooks that some people must use to level their workbench.
After watching IRI, I think that the yellow card should carry through both to the matches and elims. Unless the elims next year a greatly different that is how it should be. This makes it fair plus adds that new dimension to the game.
I thought it was implemented great at IRI. The refs and audience knew what was going on and had a great time. Hope to see it used in some form in the coming years. And since we are on the sports penalty topic, this year red cards(soccer) next year instant replay (football). j/kâŚI donât think we would want that. We would go from 8 matches a regional to 5 matches just for replay.
edit: Dez, I just donât see cards following to next competitions. Clean slate. Can you imagine getting a yellow card in a match in Sacramento but being DQed in ATL for the penalty carrying over. Each competition is seperate.
I also was not at IRI. Work is such a pain at times. I would like to start by saying that it is good that people are trying to make things better. I am also one person with one persons outlook on things. That being said âŚ
I still donât like this card thing. The refs this year had a hard enough time knowing what the rules were. Every event that I attended (6 in all) had different rulings and many rule changes. As a hockey ref, baseball ump and player of many sports, one thing is for sure. The rules must be set in concrete before the season starts and they must not change. This is not an option! For some reason FIRST believes that it is their mandate to screw up the teams and their machines by changing the rules. There is no reason for a yellow card. You state that a team does something questionable or not quite bad enough to DQ then they get a yellow card. If they do it again then they will get DQâd. If there was no foul the first time then there is no foul the second time. They still have not broken the rules. They have, in your ( or the refs ) mind come close to the edge but not quite crossed. Thatâs what this game as well as the world is about. Do your best WITHIN the rules and compete hard to be your best. Will you or others sometime go over the line, yes of course and then you get penalized. But to give warnings that âyou are too close for us and if you make me uncomfortable agin then I will penalize youâ, are just not in true sportsmanship or in the spirit of competition. Measures are in place to penalize teams that deserve it. Letâs just use them and get the rules down before we start the season. Robots are to be make sturdy and designed to the game. Teams that have not protected their electronics should be DQâd for poor design with safety being sooooo important.
Please excuse my rantings but certain things need to be fixed before we start adding more, less defined, decisions for the refs. I believe that most refs do a great job and do not favor any teams. I believe that they try to call plays according to the interpratation (spelling) they they are given at the time. I believe that they can have one of the most stressfull jobs at the event and they are not given enough credit for wat they do. I would like to thank all of the refs for their willingness to put themselves into this situation
