Yellow / Red Cards Assigned in 2019

rules

#122

Some rules are dumb and should be changed. Blindly following them does nothing to help that.


#123

I dont agree with the entire alliance rule either.
My point is that there is a rule for a reason and it should be follow.

Venues and volunteers should follow those rules too and do their best to help students not violate those rules. Closing up the field gates while students are still on it is just begging them to get a card, but field volunteers still do it.


#124


#125

So if a bot is overweight it should still be allowed to compete and inspire the students that built it?

If your bot extends 31" outside the frame should you get a special inspiration pass even though all the other teams designed within the rules?

The rules and penalties are there for everyone to read and understand back in January. Most of the rules with cards are for safety, safety for the humans, safety for the field elements, safety for the robots. We all know that in any argument with safety, safety always wins.


#126

Please read my post in its entirety, it would help clarify the point I was trying to make.

Stepping over a 19" wall being unsafe is insane. I’ll still follow the rule, but I would like a ban on table saws if a small field barrier is going to be construed as this super dangerous thing.


#127

We built a practice field and a mentor tripped stepping over the wall, we didn’t have gates. I guess your definition of unsafe depends on whether someone trips or not.

There are safe ways to behave and there are unsafe ways. As soon as someone trips over an official wall and sues FIRST and wins you’ll see the end of inspiration.


#128

I’ve fallen down the stairs a few times. Events should red card teams for using stairs at events.

Also, one time I cut my hand on a keyboard. Teams should be disqualified from events if they use a keyboard.


#129

In consideration for FIRST allowing the Participant to participate in a Program, Participant (and the Parent/Guardian of a Participant under 18 years of age for and on behalf of the Participant and the Parent/Guardian) assumes all risk of such participation and hereby releases FIRST and (except as expressly provided below) all FIRST directors, officers, employees, volunteers, and agents from any and all claims for any injury of any kind to the Participant (and the Parent/Guardian) or other damages that may occur as a result of the Participant’s participation in the Program, including without limitation any injuries or other damages that may be caused by the negligence of FIRST or negligence of any FIRST director, officer, employee, volunteer, or agent (including without limitation negligently failing to adequately investigate or screen coaches, mentors, volunteers, etc.), and agrees not to file any lawsuit or otherwise make any claim against FIRST or any FIRST director, officer, employee, volunteer, or agent for any such injury or other damages. The Participant (and the Parent/Guardian of a Participant under 18 years of age) does not hereby release any claims against any individual person who intentionally causes injury to the Participant.


#130

Every ladder made now is plastered with warning labels. Ever spill coffee from a fast food drive thru?
There’s always a lawyer that will sue a deep pocket organization if they feel they have a chance at winning.


#131

That explains a lot…:wink:


#133

The rules and penalties are there for everyone to read and understand back in January. Most of the rules with cards are for safety, safety for the humans, safety for the field elements, safety for the robots. We all know that in any argument with safety, safety always wins.

I don’t think anyone is saying there shouldn’t be some kind of penalty for being unsafe. But sending an alliance home because a kid stepped over a gate really feels like the harshest punishment possible for a pretty minor mess up. Feels like a lot of people are into over-punishing kids for small mistakes and I’m not down with that.


#134

I agree, safety is certainly important, but the punishment for stepping over a gate, something that is relatively safe, seems crazy. I also think that the punishment should not affect the whole alliance


#135

Guys, this thread has lost its focus. I want to know WHAT has flagged. Whether or not it is right or wrong is immaterial.

Can we get back to “what was flagged?”


#137

What kills me about these sorts of cards (i.e. stepping over the barrier) is that we see the MC/FTA/Head Ref violate them all day and half the night and we expect teenagers (and, frankly, mentors too) to not key off of and repeat this behavior. If stepping over the barrier were actually a safety concern then no other people at the event would be allowed to do it. We all wear safety glasses, we all wear proper clothing, yet for some reason team members cannot step over the barrier while many others can.

What I really think the rule is about is this: you cannot step over the barrier because you have the opportunity to affect how the robots are setup or inspected prior to scoring, and the refs/field re-setters don’t want anyone else in the way while they do their job. If this were the justification I could accept it. The safety argument for these sorts of rules are just a fig leaf to hide behind.


#138

I would imagine you also don’t want people carrying robots over the walls. You would likely want to write that into the rule if you make it more lenient.


#139

Referencing this, Penalties reference sheet I think that most of the penalties you saw in week 1 were

G10. On defense, rein it in. No part of a ROBOT, except its BUMPERS, may be outside its FRAME
PERIMETER if its BUMPERS are completely beyond its opponent’s CARGO SHIP LINE.
Violation: FOUL, plus an additional FOUL for every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not
corrected. If G9 is also being violated, additional FOUL escalates to TECH FOUL.

or

G18. There’s a 5-count on pins. ROBOTS may not pin an opponent’s ROBOT for more than five (5)
seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6)
feet. The pinning ROBOT(s) must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin
the same ROBOT again. Pinning is transitive through other objects. If the pinned ROBOT chases
the pinning ROBOT upon retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized, and the pin will be
considered complete.
Violation: FOUL, plus an additional FOUL for every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not
corrected. If G9 and/or G10 are also being violated, additional FOUL escalates to TECH FOUL. If
extended, RED CARD.


#140

Are you under the impression the mechanism magically vanishes when the curtain comes up? If not, what does that have to do with anything? “In all fairness,” the mechanism is there whether the curtain is down or up. It’s placed very near to the top of the alliance wall.


#141

G10 doesn’t escalate to a card. I didn’t hear of any G18 red cards over the past weekend. They’re specifically looking for cards and not penalties.

If you’re looking at penalties, G9 was called far more often than G18.

But, cards seemed to be primarily for extending beyond the alliance wall while climbing, contact inside the frame perimeter, and walking over the wall this past week.


#142

Response to this is to bring it up with the event manager or FTA. At events I was at last year, no one got a special “step over the side border” pass.

Prior to matches, gates get closed incrementally as alliances set their robots and move off the field. Closing the gates helps prevent accidental S2 violations by teams.

If a team is having trouble connecting to the robot, or convinces the FTA or head ref to be allowed back on the field, the field staff would commonly just open one gate for them.

If there’s a lengthy delay and teams get to go back on the field, you might see just the gates on the scoring table side opened.


#143

Sorry that I’m a bit late to this discussion about this specific penalty, but unfortunately there was some misinformation.

This wasn’t actually what happened. Gates on either side of the field were left open, as members of the alliance were entering and exiting from both sides.

Additionally, it was mostly, at least in our case where we had connection issues, opened from the audience side, so it seems to really depend on the situation.

In the matches I saw as well from Gibraltar specifically, no field official appeared to jump the gate. In the past, though, I can definitely remember some doing that.

Just my 2¢