You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can be the ref and make the call.
Based on the 2004 rules, can a team begin cutting metal before Christmas for parts that will go on their 2005 robot if they are only making parts that are duplicates of commercially available parts & assemblies?
You Make The Call!
Author’s note: This YMTC was motivated by the now available AM Transmissions that has been discussed at the Andymark.biz post.
i say no. no matter how close the team-produced part is to the commercial part, they’re still fabricating parts. rules are rules, and fabricating parts outside of build period and competition is against them.
I say yes. If it’s a duplicate of what is available commercially then what makes cutting it different then buying it. Other than possibly the fact that buying it pre-cut more costly.
Allison
Edit - I’m not thinking yes to something like “well lets cut plates for our gearboxes now, because we could buy them if we wanted too.” I’m thinking “We have this large pile of scrap materials so let’s cut off what we can use and throw it into one pile, and throw all the stuff we can’t into another pile.”
Is precutting metal any different than buying a plate of aluminum and specifying a custom size you want it cut to?
I don’t think so.
Any metal cutting means its not an off the shelf item and should not be made. Making prototypes, upgrades to old practice robots, new test bed robots even would be fine but all metal cutting should be done after the kick-off.
Ditto. It doesn’t matter if it is commercially available or not. Fabrication IS fabrication and that is not allowed. If they want to purchase then that is up to them but NO building.
That’s eactly why its different. Cutting before may allow a team to save money giving them an unfair advantage over other teams.
Not so. You can not purchase new, but only re-use COTS parts, and only from last year. Notice in that COTS parts from two years back would not be allowed. It says “from previous year’s robots”; is does not say “from previous years’ robots.”
Dontcha just love trying to obey rules written by engineers? :rolleyes:
<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the
2004 team after the start of the Kick-off. Mechanisms from previous year’s robots may not be used,
however, individual off-the-shelf components from previous year’s robots may be re-used to save the cost
of re-purchase of these parts IF they meet ALL of the 2004 Additional Parts and Materials Rules.
I am not sure of what you are saying Jack. If you want to use off the shelf parts from last years robot then that is OK. The mechanisms are not to be used and nothing is to be pre assembled before kickoff. I guess that some people don’t understand that no means no.
If you’re cutting a piece of metal from one big rectangle into two smaller rectangles, go for it, because you’re not doing anything that would be designing or whatnot. I mean, if you have a big piece of aluminum, but need a chunk off of it for something now, and you’re saving the rest for build, then what’s the big deal?
However, if you’re doing any actual design, like figuring out what kind of base you’ll want (I don’t know how you do that before kickoff, unless you’re RAGE), then no, you can’t start prefabricating parts.
There’s no real option for this, so I didn’t vote above.
The way the earlier posts this were written it seemed to me people were condoning a “Cut your materials to size now and wait until kickoff day to weld it” plan off action. Not cutting a piece of material to use it for something else now or even cutting down say a 20’ piece of box Al so it fits in your storage area.
Let me start by saying that I hate “slippery slope” arguments. I think that it’s the acme of foolishness to say that “If we allow (thing we’re arguing about) x, we won’t be able to prevent (thing everyone knows is wrong) y”. If x, whether it’s a ban on assualt weapons, double parking in the quad for less than 15 minutes, or pushing back against the strictest and most important rules in FIRST, isn’t noxious enough to be struck down on its own vices, then we ought to let it happen.
That said, what we have here is a clear case of the slippery slope in action. For the past few years, we have seen an increase in the way we as a community are allowing ourselves to build parts. While the rules explicity address some of these ways(such as the addition of suppliers other than Small Parts), others, such as AM.biz, extreme collaboration, and the bringing of practice / spare parts robots to competitions are not, and have been driven largely by the FIRST community itself.
This cavalier attitude towards the building rules has now slipped and slided to the point that people are trying to justify cutting metal on their robot before the season begins. Don’t. It’s cheating. If you cut a piece of metal to use on your robot before the kickoff, you are a cheater.
What’s the difference between purchasing/stocking up on things like extra PWM cables, servos, keyed rod, wheels, etc. and cutting a piece of metal you intend to use for your 2005 robot?
In any case, you’re taking the risk of not being able to use any of the stuff you’re preparing based on the not-yet-released 2005 rules.
Similarly, what if you manufacture a robot base (or at least cut pieces for it) to the “standard” 30" x 36" dimensions only to find out that the “standards” have changed for 2005?
Let them (us) cut and suffer the possibility of a consequent rule change that renders the piece(s) useless.
<slight sarcasm>
Hey Kris,
I like the slippery slope argument, so I use it a lot. But don’t you think it’s a little hypocritical to first say you hate it, and then proceed to use it? If you are philosophically opposed to the use of this argumentum, then keep yourself away from that slope, and use some of those God-given brain cells to fashion an argument that doesn’t conflict with your chosen philosophy. :rolleyes:
</slight sarcasm>
Mark, the difference is the rules forbid you cutting the metal. That is part of fabrication. I am sorry if I offend but this is a black and white issue. White, you follow the rules and do NO work on the robot till kickoff. Black, you throw away gracious professionalism and sportsmanship and cheat as stated by Chris.
I once had a plaque on my wall that said something like this. I live by my standards, if I decide to do something against my standards I lower them so that I do not feel guilty. This is happening so often in our society. I believe that FIRST has higher ideals and that sometimes we must raise our standards to meet those of FIRST.
On the other hand, and only to throw a wrench into things, the 2005 rules are not out yet. That means that you can work to your hearts content without feeling guilty. However once the rules come out and if like last year say no building before kickoff, then you would not be able, with a clear conscience, be able to use those pieces on your robot. The call is yours and you may be the only one who knows what your actions are. Remember that if the students know what is done and we do nothing to correct the problem they will receive a lesson. I hope that it is not a bad one.
Prototype your brains out now, but if it’s going to be shipped as a part of your 2005 robot, you’ll have to make a new one after kickoff.
Not at all - to avoid the use of the slippery slope, one has to allow the things that I mentioned (previously non-standard methods of building), but draw the line and vigorously defend it when it is merited.
I have never had a problem with the new methods that wasn’t a problem with the method itself. Of those things I mentioned, I’ve only actually spoken out against bringing spare or practice robots to competitions, because I didn’t feel that it was possible for a team to have a robot to practice with for many weeks without modifying it, and therefore running afoul of the spirit and letter of the law. If I were a slippery slope subscriber, I could have argued against every single one of those changes on the grounds that it would have led to where we are now - where people think that it’s ok to build robot parts before and after the 6 week build season. But those changes themselves weren’t problematic - this one is. So, I think we should allow the others, and protest against those who would make this change.
I think the main thing you are all missing here is the basic question: What is raw material?
For an example, is a 6.2" x 3.8" piece of 1/4" thick aluminum plate raw material just as is a 4’x8’ sheet of it.
Or maybe if you buy that small precisely cut piece from the metal store it is raw material but if you cut it youself from the large sheet then it is fabricated? That wouldn’t make sense.
Metal stores sell cut to order sizes very commonly and readily and thus I would classify cut them as “off the shelf” It is just like when you order a Cheeseburger no pickels, it is made just for you but it everybody gets it their own way.
But, say you took a side of beef and made your own cheeseburger, or in this case the plate of metal and made your own little rectangle. Would that be fabrication. I would think no since it would be exactly the same process as what they are doing at the store.
But howabout making an aluminum sprocket? Is that fabrication? What if you can buy the exact same sprocket? If it was exactly the same (by exactly I mean if it was used on the Mars Rover and you replaced it with your own it would work the same) then I would say that it acceptable. But who would fabricate something the exact same as they could easily buy? Perhaps only to save money, so now the issue is how is it counted in the budget? Now say they are making a #25 43 tooth aluminum sprocket, but all that is for sale is the same model in steel. I believe that would be fabrication.
I see fabrication (loosely classified) as bending, cutting on an angle, drilling, milling, facing, turning, and hardening.
I would see raw materials as being cut on 90 degree angles only and through the entire thickness of the material (so you don’t take a 3x3" block and cut a 1.5" by 1.5" little block out of it to make a step), in the orientation that the material is normally cut (for example if you had a way to cut 1/4" plate in half to make 1/8" plate, that is not normal and it would be fabrication), to within reasonable industry tolerance,s regardless of whether it is done by a metal supplier or by a team.
Let me make the above sentence a little simpler. If you can buy it cut a certain size from the metal store, then you should be allowed to cut it to that same certain size yourself and it would still be considered a raw material.
In any case though, I don’t know why there has been so much worry on these boards about people cheating or pre-season fabricating lately. Do you just think it’s unfair because if they can do it without getting caught you want to also? Or is it unfair because your behing left behind by follwing the rules.Each team interprets the rules in their own way and they will decide amongst themselves how closely they will or will not follow the universal interpretation and/or spirit of the rules.
Following the rules or not, anyone who fabricates before the build is taking a huge risk. A risk that certain elements of the game and the rules will not change. But on January 8th, everything could change in an instant. Yes there have been trends and similarities in the past years (and that is why we do offseason designing and prototyping) but nothing is gauranteed to be the same. There is no rule that the field must remain square. They might say no wheels allowed. They might say no motors alowed for drive systems. They might say everyone must use the gearbox provided in the kit. There might not even be a gearbox in the kit.
So everyone who does pre-season work, regardless of whether it is legal by your interpretation of the rules, is taking a risk that all their work will be thrown out the window on January 8th.
It is impossible to design a robot (or even major compnents of the robot) that will play the game well and how you want to play it, before you the game is ever released.
Please keep in mind that these are my own ideas and you will probably find lots of flaws in my reasoning but I threw it out there to start the discussion anyhow. Also, being my own ideas, what is expressed in the above is in no way intentionally reflective of the actual game rules from past or future competitions.
From the 2004 Rules(which may of course change in 2005) -
“5.2.5 Design and Build Rules
<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the start of the Kick-off.”
From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary -
“Fabricate - CONSTRUCT, MANUFACTURE; specifically : to construct from diverse and usually standardized parts”
What’s to interpret? The answer should be pretty clear. “Teams MUST fabricate and/or assemble…AFTER the start of the kickoff”. No interpretation necessary. Unless we are to be like Bill Clinton and debate what the definition of the word is is.
Besides, my interpretation or your interpretation of the rules doesn’t matter. The only interpretation that matters is that which comes from FIRST. And that is clear to me anyway.
Even fabrication of spare parts after the build period was made crystal clear last year. The official FIRST response to a question posed in the Q & A said you put your tools down when the robot is shipped and pick them up again at your first competition. Not much to debate their either.
From my own interpretation of the rules I think the arguments against cutting before the season are all very valid.
My own $.02 - What is your purpose for cutting the pieces before the season starts? If it is a matter of saving space in your storage area or for use on a prototype, more power to you. If, as it seems from the original question, it is to gain an advantage over other teams by removing some of your fabrication work from the build season, that sounds like a violation of the rules and the spirit of FIRST.
Right now I have students brainstorming possible drivetrain configurations, possible body designs, and many other things. Some have gone as far as to draw up a possible cut list for materials. That, however, is where it ends. After the kickoff, our strategy team will look over the brainstormed ideas, choose what appears to work best for this year’s game, and begin fabrication. AFTER the kickoff!
Like Dean said at last year’s kickoff, don’t make rule interpretation a thing for the lawyers. Think about the spirit of the competition. In the end we will probably never know if you decided to cut before the kickoff or not. That’s a decision that will have to be made by your team. Hopefully it is a good decision.